martial art VS martial sport

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[BJust because it is trained for competitive sporting events doesn't mean that it's not a martial art.

As for clinching - very little of that going on in Wing Chun...but kneeing - yes. Kicking - yes.. Elbow strikes - yes. Defending kicks - yes...but the extent and the quality of the above varies GREATLY within the WC world.

[/B]

Victor is correct.

There's two aspects:
1. Because WC guys aren't preparing for a MT bout they don't train the range of techniques that will make them competent at the various ring situations that occur in almost every bout.

2. Even if they did want to train those things, they would not have the EXPERTISE in those areas to improve themselves. The practical knowledge of what works and what doesn't comes from people who are very experienced in the ring.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tydive
Sport vs Art... interesting way to break them down. I would rather say that some Martial Arts are also sports (Boxing, Judo etc...) while most Martial Arts are not sports because there is no "sporting competition" within the MA.

bingo.

You can break it down even more by saying that some MA's focus on competition to the point that they become much less effective as a combat system (TKD, Judo). While others become more effective due to the rules of the competitions (BJJ, MT). Thus sport vs non-sport is not a valid argument for a systems effectiveness.

I disagree slightly there though. Judo is combat effective.


But the assumption that Captain is making is that WC training needs improvement. What results from WC training would you prefer to see? What are the results that you believe can be found? Can you think of any specific training methods that could improve your WC experience? Now, if you can answer those questions... why don't you use those methods in your own training?

he might use them in his training. What does that do for WC as a whole though? styles that have a rep for hard training have them because it is style wide. Muay thai is known for it's conditioning. I think he's saying it would benefit WC as a whole if the format changed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Conditioning and frequent hard contact sparring with protective gear would do wonders for the WC world if it became the norm.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Edmund
Correct.

You stink at those things.

That's what I said.

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by SevenStar
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Originally posted by Vankuen

For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of "total" enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real "style") would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.

how much experience have you had with sport fighters?

Alot. As a matter of fact the gym I go to locally is self defense/muay thai/MMA school. I just so happen to be the only wing chun person there.

IME, more tma have ego problems than sport fighters. Why? because getting your a$$ kicked keeps your ego in check.
How about those who don't get their butts kicked for a while? You don't think they develop an ego problem? Point in case...we have one fighter in our gym who has yet to suffer a defeat. He has an ego like you wouldnt believe! I've told him, that one day there will be someone stronger and faster. Personally I have seen far more egos in sport fighting then any other experience in the martial arts in general. This is not to say that the ego doesnt exist in TMA, but the difference is that most TMA have nothing to prove from my experiences...whereas the fighter usually does...or else why would he be fighting? There is always a reason for doing what we do or don't do.

a mindset of "total" enlightenment? please elaborate.
Total enlightenment: Basically meaning that they try to improve more then just their ability to defeat someone in a ring.

And, that "conglomeration of techniques with no real 'style' " bit was WAY off.

1. boxers only train boxing. I wasnt talking about boxing with that statement.
2. thai boxers generally only train thai boxing I wasnt talking about muay thai either
3. mma guys mix striking and grappling. They generally have some background in one of the two styles though. Silva was a muay thai practitioner and recently earned his black belt in bjj. Noguiera is a bjj guy. there are olympic caliber wrestlers, champion thaiboxers... Most of the time, these guys have a base in something (usually grappling, but sometimes striking) then supplement it with something else.
so you're telling me that when they fight they only use one style at a time? Please. In high stress situations the body performs on muscle memory and spontaneous reaction. The fighter who has learned more then one style will use what is necessary when it's necessary, and therefore the "styles" that they at one time train in become one conglomeration of techniques. Most fighters use what works with no regard to what style it is.


That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

should there be a difference? you train wing chun. I train muay thai and judo mainly, but train bjj as well. muay thai is no less effective than wing chun. IMO, choice of style really makes no difference - it's more a matter of the individual picking a style that suits him.
Actually I train in wing chun and muay thai. And I have traing in BJJ as you have, as well as a couple shaolin systems, TKD, Kung jung mu sul, blah blah...who cares?! And I feel it's not so much the style but the person's ability to use that style(s) that they've chosen. There is an ongoing debate as to whether wing chun would work against the thai fighters, I have used wing chun on many of the fighters in my gym successfully. Did I use only wing chun? No. Because what I have learned through my years of training comes out when it comes out. But I have used it successfully. Does that mean that another wing chun person could do it? No. But I did and that's all that really matters. Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Vankuen:

Excellent post!

[Ernie]

Vankuen
Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it


[[[Can YOU do it is the real question.]]]]]

just had to say it twice , i think i might have shed a tear and a smle

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vankuen

Alot. As a matter of fact the gym I go to locally is self defense/muay thai/MMA school. I just so happen to be the only wing chun person there.

And you think that they muscle through everything?


How about those who don't get their butts kicked for a while? You don't think they develop an ego problem? Point in case...we have one fighter in our gym who has yet to suffer a defeat. He has an ego like you wouldnt believe! I've told him, that one day there will be someone stronger and faster. Personally I have seen far more egos in sport fighting then any other experience in the martial arts in general. This is not to say that the ego doesnt exist in TMA, but the difference is that most TMA have nothing to prove from my experiences...whereas the fighter usually does...or else why would he be fighting? There is always a reason for doing what we do or don't do.

As long as he continues to compete, he will eventually have his day. That's the beauty of it. Now the guys that don't compete - they don't see that day. So the ego tends to stay. I've had TMA guys tell me "boxers have no skill, they just stand there and slug eachother", and "in a real fight, just kick them in the nads or hit them in the throat". This tends to happen on a regular basis. That or they tell me how they will never go to the ground. All of the sport fighters I know are very open minded.


Total enlightenment: Basically meaning that they try to improve more then just their ability to defeat someone in a ring.

gotcha. I'm not sure that everything else isn't a byproduct though... you can learn discipline as a byproduct of training, same with humbleness and the history of your style. Spiritual development would be excluded though, granted.

so you're telling me that when they fight they only use one style at a time? Please. In high stress situations the body performs on muscle memory and spontaneous reaction. The fighter who has learned more then one style will use what is necessary when it's necessary, and therefore the "styles" that they at one time train in become one conglomeration of techniques. Most fighters use what works with no regard to what style it is.

right, but they still have a style. silva's style is muay thai and bjj. Can he use them both at will? sure. But training two styles doesn't make him styleless.


That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

IMO, not much. I think the biggest factor is the training method.

Actually I train in wing chun and muay thai. And I have traing in BJJ as you have, as well as a couple shaolin systems, TKD, Kung jung mu sul, blah blah...who cares?!

That's my point. For the most part, we agree, but we seem to differ here:

And I feel it's not so much the style but the person's ability to use that style(s) that they've chosen.

As stated, I don't think it's the individual. It's the training methods they employ.

But I have used it successfully. Does that mean that another wing chun person could do it? No. But I did and that's all that really matters. Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it.

exactly. Welcome back to the forums...

[SevenStar]

just last night, a tma guy I used to train with came by the school. he looked at the setup and said "hmm...this looks like a real fighter's gym" and then broke into war stories of how he trained in a similar looking boxing gym when he was 14 and that he used to regularly beat adult marines. They all had previous MA experience, and he had at the time only been training 6 months.

He then went to talk about how he would hit the bag 2 hours straight. I was like "that's fine. I would hit it in 3 min rounds for 2 hours if I wanted to do that though, as opposed to 2 hours straight" he went on to say that he isn't training for the ring and that his eye gouges and fish hooks were a godsend for him while he was bouncing. He said that he only get really motivated when his life is at stake. He said plenty of other stuff, but you get the gist from this. His sifu isn't quite like that, but he is. he teaches wing chun and teaches/trains longfist.

I thought it was an interesting coincidence that we had this thread here, then last night he comes by saying what he said...

[captain]

maybe wing chun could do with a gi and gloves to get it more sport active?

Russ.

[SAAMAG]

yea, that is odd seven. It's obvious when people talk whether or not they are full of it. Personally I wouldnt stick anything in anyone's mouth that I didn't want coming off. (try not to take that the wrong way guys).

There are those whose ignorance feeds their ego and those whose ability feeds their ego.