other's kung fu

[cerebus]

See, this is what I'm talking about. The whole bad attitude thing. No, I don't need "Hooked On Phonics". Yes, I can read. Yes, you are being VERY rude. And you did post more than just that one bit which you chose to include in your response to me. Now please take a deep breath & relax a little (please?). I'm not saying you're wrong (or right), I'm just saying there's no need to start right out being rude, sorry if my post got you pizzed off at me now. Peace. T.

[wushu chik]

Nah, your post didn't **** me off at all. I am a very blatantly forward person. I say what I think, I think what I say. That's just me. I was rude because of a lot of different reasons, mainly because what my other posts state.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by xie li wong
Lets talk about masters for a second. BSL is one of the more well know systems out there, with quite a few very extensive lineage lists to verify authinticity from.

Now to what Im getting at, Master Ma. Now Im not saying that he doesnt know anything or never trained. But KL, if your sifu (Wes Cameron) doesnt know where Sifu Ma got his BSL from, that raises a BIG red flag.

Learning BSL takes quite a long time, you spend YEARS with a teacher, now in that entire time sifu Ma never said where he learned? Are there any pictures of sifu Ma anywhere

You guys are like the bunny and the battery.
Sifu Cameron has this to say: although He learned from Sifu Ma for 5 years, he does not consider Bak Sil Lum as his primary core style, he never asked Sifu Ma about his Sifu as it is rude in Chinese culture to do so, he did not take photos of Sifu Ma, so he does not have any...he spent his time learning the 10 sets, not discussing, taking pictures etc. He learned privately, so he has no idea as to other students. Now kindly have some manners and stop implying a slander to his name or to sifu Ma.

GHD

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Yeah, I know alot of very straight forward people who are nice in person but sound angry on the internet. It's just that it's really hard to convey tone with the written word. Many times I'll write something in a joking manner or simply in a very "to the point" manner and it will anger people who think I'm being rude. It just came across that way to me and KL may have taken it that way as well. It's just hard to get answers to questions when people start getting angry with one another (& I'm all about learning). Thanks for the response. Peace all. T.
EDIT: This was in response to Wushu Chik's post.

[Fen]

Originally posted by xie li wong
Lets talk about masters for a second. BSL is one of the more well know systems out there, with quite a few very extensive lineage lists to verify authinticity from.

Now to what Im getting at, Master Ma. Now Im not saying that he doesnt know anything or never trained. But KL, if your sifu (Wes Cameron) doesnt know where Sifu Ma got his BSL from, that raises a BIG red flag.

Learning BSL takes quite a long time, you spend YEARS with a teacher, now in that entire time sifu Ma never said where he learned? Are there any pictures of sifu Ma anywhere

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
You guys are like the bunny and the battery.
Sifu Cameron has this to say: although He learned from Sifu Ma for 5 years, he does not consider Bak Sil Lum as his primary core style, he never asked Sifu Ma about his Sifu as it is rude in Chinese culture to do so, he did not take photos of Sifu Ma, so he does not have any...he spent his time learning the 10 sets, not discussing, taking pictures etc. He learned privately, so he has no idea as to other students. Now kindly have some manners and stop implying a slander to his name or to sifu Ma.

GHD

I do not feel that XLW implying slander to Mr.Cameron or Mr. Ma.
XLW was only asking a legit question becase it does seem a little fishy. If the history you "GHD" state is true. Then I would NOT take BSL from him or his students.

~Jason

[NorthernShaolin]

Well I just want to make two comments here.


One, KL is right in that the core in all existing BSL sets (At least from what I'm able to observe) are there and that is the most important point that he is expressing.

Two, TOW has also make his point in that the beginning and ending of BSL set have traditionally been left for the sifu to change as to distingush his signature in the lineage. It is really no big deal because it is an acceptable practice. For example, old timers use to tell me how they can reconize lineage by observing the beginning and ending of the BSL sets. This cause me to start observing different BSL opening and closing movements in tournaments and soon I was able to reconize the lineage. There is nothing wrong with these small changes as long as the core is still being transmitted to the next generation.

When I do my BSL sets many old timers can reconize the ending signature because I after all these years, I choose to keep my sifu's signature. These changes in the beginning and/or ending are really a manner of choice by the current sifu who is teaching. It is part of his expression of the style as long as the core of BSL sets are not changed. Changing the core will change the intent flavor of the style and eventually change the essense of the style. Now this may, in some cases, be the intent of the sifu and as a result, naming the style as a branch after himself.

In the case of Sifu WL, he has and has the right as a Sifu to make changes in BSL sets. I had conversed with some of his most senior students (his original stuents) on Sifu's WL tapes and they acknowledged that there are some changes from what they originally learnt and what exists on the tapes. Since I learnt with Sifu WL, I am aware of some of the changes that he has made too. But sets change with time with everyone. Even my sifu does his sets a little different with time and as long as the essence and core is there that is the most important thing.

[templefist]

I have a little perspective to add to this. I am not implying at all that KL or Sifu Cameron learned at all from video, this is just a story of happened to me.

Yes as XLW stated, I myself was studing with someone who learned off of the Lam videos (as well as other vids he picked up.)

With his skill and ability to move, I would never have thought that he learned off video. The only reason that I came to suspect him and find out the truth is of his lineage.

He supposedly learned the bsl 10 core from a master Ting (Im not going to put any names down here as I really dont want to talk bad about him)

He trained with this master until he died in the 80's. There are no pictures of him anywhere, no other students of this master, and absolutly ZERO mention of him in any of the BSL family trees.

Now this is not to say that he never existed and studied BSL, but it does cast a doubt on it. as he supposedly trained with KYC.

The final proof that the forms came from video came when I got ahold of other credible BSL stylists.

I was told of the marks in the forms and of the endings. I was being taught both. I asked my sifu about this and he stuck to his story of master Ting. After finding out more and more on the vids and the marks I eventually confronted him with undesputable proof that they came from videos. To this he replied that he still studied with master Ting, but changed the forms to "standardize" them with the only readly available BSL media out there(I.E. Lam tapes)

Now is there a chance master Ting existed? It could be possible

Is it possible that my former sifu learned the forms before he bought the vids: Yes

Do I believe that to be so: Most definatly not


Thank you for you time.
Templefist

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by tao of wushu



I do not feel that XLW implying slander to Mr.Cameron or Mr. Ma.
XLW was only asking a legit question becase it does seem a little fishy. If the history you "GHD" state is true. Then I would NOT take BSL from him or his students.

~Jason

Feel as you wish...the implication is there and is bad ettiquette.

So Sifu Cameron has answered...take it at that unless you want to continue to look for, imply etc. for something that is simply not there.
Sifu Cameron was demonstrating Bak Sil Lum in 1983, long before any tapes were even out.

As NS indicated, sets change overtime even with the same Sifu. Some Sifu put their own beginning, ending etc while others do not. Its no big deal.

GHD

[xie li wong]

GHD:
Oh well, get over it!

KL:


The End

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by xie li wong
GHD:
Oh well, get over it!

Ah...the little bunny with the battery again.

By how many posts you have made ranting and raving, I would say it is you that has to get over it

GHD

[David Jamieson]

K, well, I'm not gonna continue this banter and back and forth mudslinging.

you kids are what I don't like about some of the martial arts community. a bunch of wannabe experts.

xi li, i am well aware of my not ending in the same spot, I am just as well aware of my need to be working on my kungfu consistently and diligently.

Please be aware that BSL is not my main style, it is a sideline to the overall practice I do and I likely need to continue to work on all my kungfu.

You on the other hand, and your "pudgy out of shape medical reasons ugly sister", need to work on something the rest of us had together at teh age of 6. Our manners. I am only returning empty insults to you seeing as you are into using this as legitimate communication.

So, retort if you will, I'm done here, I'm convinced you are both a couple of loogans who as long as you don't put up or shut up will remain so. I've always said that internet forum arguments of this nature are just silly, and my participation in the silliness is over.

Have fun at your bitter little forum of insightful discussion into what you read or saw at so and so's sight today losers.

to all else, regards and best of the season.
cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

wow. where's the love?

[rubthebuddha]

i can't say anything about xlw or templefist, but i personally know that wushu chik and tao of wushu are in no way guilty being wannabes.

both have more upstairs about kung fu than most other instructors i know, and they've been kind enough to share their wisdom with me on many an occasion.

also gotta say that kung lek's proven me wrong a time or three. lousy bum.

i don't see the banter going back and forth doing any good, so i would like to steer the conversation back toward something more fun -- like the idea of "marking" students, either through videos as wing lam has been alleged, or other means. the more i think of it, the more it seems maybe my own sijo, yip man, may have done the same, albeit a bit more blatantly than wing lam allegedly does.

thoughts?

[Fen]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
You on the other hand, and your "pudgy out of shape medical reasons ugly sister", need to work on something the rest of us had together at teh age of 6. Our manners. I am only returning empty insults to you seeing as you are into using this as legitimate communication.

So, retort if you will, I'm done here, I'm convinced you are both a couple of loogans who as long as you don't put up or shut up will remain so. I've always said that internet forum arguments of this nature are just silly, and my participation in the silliness is over.

Have fun at your bitter little forum of insightful discussion into what you read or saw at so and so's sight today losers.

to all else, regards and best of the season.
cheers

Well Kung Lek:
I did put up! as did XLW, WC and NS and said the truth that YOUR ending is the same as Sifu Wing Lam! I never said anything about the "core" of your sets. NS said the core was there. a good thang yes. But now if you do not like the truth then DO NOT READ IT!
But please if you and Wen have a beef, DO not call her childish Names and Fu-Ragz thou ME You just made a A$$ out of your self!

~Jason

[NorthernShaolin]

rubthebuddha,


Marking of students: before the days of video taping and selling them on the open market, I know for a fact that many of the old sifus either intentionally or not, have changed sets slightly over the years. Now most cases can account for temporary memory lost because the sifu has not taught the set in a long time and sometimes the sifu will go back and correct the missing part.

Other sifus have told me that they have changed sets slightly to denote different generations of students in their teaching phase. For example, in the early years when the sifu is more energenic as comparied to his sunset years in teaching when he's tayloring down his curriculum. (So this is in the days before video)

As for today's video curriculum, slight changes in video sets as comparied to in house students would make obvious sense.

Now stop for a moment and image yourself thinking in a traditional mode and a business opportunity is place in front of you.

A sifu's reputation means a lot in the old days and with the coming of new ways to marketing ones product and skills, sometimes it is hard to let go of the old beliefs. And one way to give a false sense of control of a reputation, slight changes are introduce in order to separate a video student and a real bred in house student who was taught by a live body (either by him or his down line disciples). Why this is done? Various reasons that really sometimes do not make sence to us. To many of us in the Western world, we are exposed to business opportunities and sometimes do not understand why traditional thinking can cloud issues.

All I know that yes it also occurrs in the video world because some sifus have told me that they do indeed make slight changes. Never asked them why because that is really their own business.