Punched a tai chi guy in the stomache as hard as I could

[IronFist]

Oh yeah, and also, ask him about the stomach thing. Go "my friend IronFist wants to know how tense your abs were while taking my shot to the stomach."

And if he doesn't give you a purely physical answer to that question, call him on it and say "you didn't answer my question."

^ Unless that will get him p.issed at you, then don't do it

Thanks.

[[Censored]]

They were firm but not tense.

[KungFuGuy!]

I don't know him well enough yet to ask him a question like that I think
Yeah, censored described it better than I did.

[Toby]

KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

[IronFist]

Right. I don't want you to be disrespectful to your teacher or anything, but I would really like to know the answers.

I know that a lot of MA people are completely clueless when it comes to how anatomy and movement work. This is why you hear people say rediculous things like "I move with my tendons and not my muslces," or "too much muscle makes you slow and stuff."

[Nexus]

IronFist,

So right you are!! Most people have never even looked in a Human Anatomy book and seen that a HUGE majority of what makes up the body in volume is our muscles, not our tendons (LoL!)

"Big Muscles make you slow." is so silly its preposterous. Lazyness makes you slow. Lets get it right people!

[Brithlor]

Honestly I feel QUICKER from using weights...

But I always hear that they can damage your speed...

Is there some kind of improper weight training that CAN make you slow?

[[Censored]]

KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

If you don't like my answer then give your own...based on your experience giving and taking punches to the gut, not based on what you read in a book.

A water balloon is firm. Is it also tense then?

[Zhiu]

weights do make you slow only if you train for size. because you do the reps slow and steady and in a controlled manner to overload the muscle. i'm not sure on the specifics but i do feel slower unless you lift them faster then you may gain speed because you have slow twitch and fast twitch muscles and you just might be training the fast twitch depending on how you lift

[KungFuGuy!]

I was under the impression that there is no benefit to lifting fast over lifting slow. Even explosive strength is better trained lifting slowly. Was I led to believe wrong?

[IronFist]

Zhiu said:
"weights do make you slow only if you train for size."

Hmm. No. The only way training for size might make you slow is because being bigger = having more mass to move. Other than that, though, all else being equal, size has no effect on speed.

"because you do the reps slow and steady and in a controlled manner to overload the muscle. i'm not sure on the specifics but i do feel slower unless you lift them faster then you may gain speed because you have slow twitch and fast twitch muscles and you just might be training the fast twitch depending on how you lift"

You might "feel slower" right after you finish lifting because your muscles are all tired and stuff, but once you recover you won't be any slower.

As for lifting fast, it's usually done in very low reps with very light reps, something like maybe you might bench press with 50% of your 1RM for 8 sets of 2. The average lifter tho has no reason to do it, as it's generally regarded as a high level powerlifting technique done for a specific purpose. And it's useless to do speed lifting on anything that's not a big compound movement. So fast barbell curls are useless, etc.

And before anyone says it, big muscles don't make you stiff, either. I've seen pics of Tom Platz, who has probably the biggest freaking legs in bodybuilding history, doing full splits. How many skinny legged martial artists can't even do the splits?

Maybe we should let the stereotypes stay, however. It's more fun that way.

[Toby]

Originally posted by [Censored]
KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

If you don't like my answer then give your own...based on your experience giving and taking punches to the gut, not based on what you read in a book.

A water balloon is firm. Is it also tense then?

I did give my own. Sorry if you were being serious, but like others who are more interested in physical and anatomical reality, I don't believe that firmness can come from no tension. Based on my limited experience of taking blows to the gut (like semi-regular training dropping an 8kg medicine ball on it), tensing up the ab muscle helps.

A water balloon is firm == tense. When it's empty, it's not tense. When it's full of water, the rubber is under tension. The more water you put in it, the more tension the rubber is under. Your point?


Zhiu,

Fast twitch/slow twitch stuff - I'm led to believe that everyone has a certain amount of fast and slow twitch fibers and you can't change the amount of either. You can improve the performance of one, however you won't be impacting the performance of the other. E.g. I'm primarily slow-twitch dominant. I train fast twitch muscles in various ways, but I'll always be more dominant in endurance-type events that slow-twitch are geared towards. So I don't think that it's possible to slow yourself down unless like Iron said you're too big and have to move more mass, or your large muscles force a less favourable (re speed) anatomy.


KFG!,

There are various benefits of lifting fast over lifting slow. However, you can get the same (or similar) benefits of lifting fast when you're lifting heavy if you put maximum effort in. E.g. if you're lifting 50% of your 1RM in BP, you can just about throw that barbell up in the air between reps. If you're lifting your 1RM, you'll be struggling every inch of the contraction, even though you're putting in the same (or more) effort that you put in for the 50% set. So you're trying to throw the bar up in the air, but you can only manage to move it very slowly. If your spotters suddenly lifted the bar away, your arms would shoot up in the air. This is a different exercise to the one where you consciously slow down each rep. If the spotters took the weight in that case, your arms would continue to move slowly. Personally, I like to go a bit slower on the eccentric phase and put in the max effort on the concentric.

[backbreaker]

In taijiquan there is something called sung. I don't know how to explain it using anatomical terms. I don't even understand it logically myself. It's a strange paradox. Exerting force through strenghth and tense muscles is considered incorrect and useless against someone with sung. But if you do what is sometimes reffered to as " limp noodle", which is being too loose or relaxed , this can get you hurt or injured. The feeling of your whole body sinking to the ground or gravity pulling you down with your feet stuck to the ground is what I try for. I think you want your upper body clearly distinguished from your lower body , so you use the lower part as an anchor stuck to the ground below the opponent and use the upper body to redirect the opponent. I also think sung is related to the joints , so perhaps flexibility and range of motion is related to sung. Like if you are not flexible , and go into the splits then you will tense up due to the stretch and cannot go any further, but if you are very flexible you can go in that position easily with no strain or tension. Flexibility as it is generally done , is not going to give you sung or rooting. Basically I think through taiji neigong , forms , and other power generation techniques you build a foundation of body structure through a specific relaxation that is not loose, but not tense like push up or bench press. You need to relax and rest on your stucture, and very importantly , you need open and realxed joints . If you are doing a bicep exercise with alot of weight it might be possible to strain the elbow joint. This would be what a relaxed taiji fighter would try to do to someone who's tense; break their joint. Breaking the joint would require twisting and spiraling and not muscular strength. If the opponent attacks your structure fiercly, his force I beleive , should naturally go into the ground and rebound back into him. You could also redirect his energy and fire back your own eneergy into him , but this force should be refined like an arrow being shot through the opponents center. Sung is definately the most solid way to be and is the most sunk to the ground. To sink into the ground you cannot be tense. I liken lifting weights to a form of hard qigong so I think it's good but not the high level or what's most important. I've been told not to worry about lifting weights too much for kickboxing because it can make your arms get too tired and you'll drop your arms if you don't have enough endurance training and I shouldn't worry about gaining weight because it's best to fight at the weight you are normally walking around. When I lift weights I mostly do it at a slow and even pace.

[Roll Back]

Hello KungFuGuy, sounds like you have a great teacher. Good luck in your training. You have found out why it especially important in the internal martial arts that you learn from a good master. It is not all about learning how to do it but learning how it is done when it is done to you. To fully understand some internal principles you need to feel it. All the explanation in the world will not give you that understanding.

With that said, same with my guy. He allows us to hit and kick him and every time I hit him he is imparting to me what he is doing, very cool. Here is my example of what I feel: Hitting him is like hitting a truck tire. The harder I hit the more it comes back to me. He feels like a truck tire too, firm but not tense. Hollow yet filled. Full, but not solid. So if someone does not have a good internal master around to hit, go hit a truck tire.

[Toby]

*Sigh* I give up. Try posting these sorts of viewpoints in the kung fu forum. You'll get some interesting replies.

I spent ages on a long reply, but gave up and deleted it. Be happy in your approach if it works for you, but please try to be informed. Structure's good, but without muscular tension, I doubt you'll last long against a skilled opponent.

Coupla points: backbreaker, spiraling and twisting is applied by your muscles, not your structure. The reason it uses less muscular strength is generally because you're using advantageous leverage and not having to oppose any of your opponent's force directly. Still using muscles, though.

Re kickboxing, weights, endurance. I have greater endurance than many of my classmates, but I do weights. I also have greater strength than many of them. Gives me an advantage over fellow students of similar skill level.