Two Fighting clips of students

[German Bai Lung]

For Mantis108 nearly insists of posting them here, I will post two clips of some students of mine being in a training fight with and without gloves.

The fighting are meant, as fa-jing said before, to improve skills and learn, learn learn! The fortune to watch himself on video and to see the mistakes being made ist great! We did that with forms also!

But okay, watch, enoy and feel free to critisize (I went through hard critism with these clips already! )

Fighting without Gloves

Sanda with Gloves

[mantis108]

Thanks for posting the clips. I encouraged you to do so eventhough you were concern about the reaction that might repeat from the German board.

I would like to share my thoughts on them with other as I have already shared with you in our emails. Hope you don't mind.

About the first clip:

http://www.bailung.de/Mantisfight1.mov

I like this clip. You can see the disciplines of mantis. To some people, they would think there is a lot of hand slapping but the truth is both side are using the hand combinations to gain the dominant positions. There are few that landed on the sides of the faces too. You can clearly see the attempts to do Deng Ta or Deng Pu takedowns with one guy (although he ended up being thrown). Also I am impressed with the agility of these guys they are alert and get on their feet as soon as they are thrown. There are plenty of the "take treasure" type of moves, which turned into shoot in, as set ups for other moves which shows an attempt in applying the fake high hit low or vice versa type of mantis stuff. The body methods are there (ie turuing). I think the training shows here. Also it is very nice to see that Chin Na (mainly elbow lock) is being attempted but as soon as it is no go, it is changed to something else. The flow is quite wonderful. It is more fluid in this clip. Although, I think some sport people might not like this one as much. But technically, I like this one.

http://www.bailung.de/Sanda1.mov

This one is pure lovely for the energy. The kicks and sweeps are superb! The conditioning is great. Man, I should beef up the training of my students. There are plenty of fast hand actions. We can see the use of hook grab pluck type of action going on even with the groves. The format is different but it is beautifully done with mantis flavor. I think it is quality stuff that you might want to share on the site. Sport people would like this one.

Do you mind if I post these on my own forum?

These 2 clips give a good idea of the broadness of your training both for the art and for the sport. BTW, I favor no glove over gloved. It is just more possibilities.

As for critics:

Well, I think their ideas of using techniques in mantis is different. I see the mainland manits rationale more so than HK mantis rationale in the clips that you provided. In all honesty, the first clip could use a bit more Chin Na, Pai An and/or Kao Do method to give more "defination". but that's more easier say than done. If they can do that, well those 2 would have been the sifu long ago, right? LOL... Your job would have been done! Anyway, don't worry about critics. You have to know what you are doing. If no one is to believe you, you have to believe in yourself. BTW, this knowledge is handed down from your teachers. If it is good for them, it is good for you. Also people just don't realize that different methodologies breed different Kung Fu. Clip 1 (forms and drills and all) and 2 (hit heavy bag and all) of yours shows to me that you have a versatile curriculum and that's a great thing. More importantly, the central theme "the mantis stuff" are presented in both clips. That consistancy is IMHO most important. if we were to claim that we practice and teach mantis fighting than we should have that consistancy regardless of the chosen format for delivery be it forms, self defense, sparring, art or sport etc...

I understand and respect your wish not to show them but I would think it's refreshing to see them.

<<<For both are students and one of them are just 4 Years learning from
me, both never did MA before, they did in my opinion their work fine.
We took the video for correcting and learning some important tactical
moves. But I always thought the clips are not that bad...>>>

They are quite top notch. You should be proud of yourself. I know how hard it is to train someone. It takes 2 to Kung Fu - teacher and student. I wish I have hard working students as yours.

Just some thoughts that I would like to share.

Mantis108

PS Taojie (stealing intercept) would be a great 2 man form for sharpening the skills in the first clip as well.

[Life long Student]

Fantastic, it was a pleasure, and very inspiring.

Thank you for posting these clips.

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung.

Thankyou for posting, it is brave to put your students up for criticism.
In my opinion the taller guy was far out classed and kept overstepping his range (fighting far too close and also attempting to take the legs and ending up turning his back and head on the short guy several times) but this allowed for some good technique from the dark haired guy. At least there was some genuine attempt to use mantis throws and footwork, along with hooking and grasping.
The second fight had a few good leg attacks too but there definitely seemed a propensity to get those high kicks going more, maybe because of the gloves?
I dont know why there is some bouncing around though (breaking the root with the ground is done as little as possible in my training experience) and also there isn't much leg stability because of the very high stances which results in a lot of stumbling (thats also just a personal opinion).

Respect for posting the clips and keep up good work!

I would love to post some of my kids fighting, it is very different again. I have a lot on VHS but unfortunately I dont have the technological know how to put it online but I will hassle one of my students to help me out with this soon. Otherwise i am just another big mouth...

B.T

[Oso]

GBL, nothing wrong with those clips as an example of in-school sparring. good stuff.

as far as criticism from the sport fighter group...the good ones won't bash even though they may offer negative criticism. IMHO, give a listen and see if anything they say applies. Negative criticism, if phrased correctly, can only help one become a better fighter.

thanks for the look.

[mantisben]

The first Clip:

These guys are very comfortable throwing hands. I saw very good evasive maneuvers, lots of straight and circular techniques. And as for the sweeps, in my opinion, even if they didn't sweep the person off their feet, they were executed at the right time. They saw the opportunity to sweep and they went for it.

The second clip:

I thought I saw them execute those overhead hammer strikes executed in the form Dai Fan Che! Maybe that isn't what it was, but that is what it looked like to me. Excellent!

It is evident that they both can defend themselves well. From the constant forward energy they're displaying, they are in great cardiovascular(?) shape, and if necessary, can go the distance in a fight.

Finally, I'd like to say it is obvious, to me, that these fighters can hit ALOT harder than they are hitting each other during this training session. I understand that they're training, and not trying to bust each other wide open.

I'm not qualified to critique these fighters, and if I was, I don't think I'd have any criticism to offer based on these 2 clips. They both did an excellent job. They're both very well trained fighters. I'm sure, they are both grateful and will never forget that they have a Sifu who prepared them to defend themselves successfully in combat.


Thank you for posting the clips!!!

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by B.Tunks

In my opinion the taller guy was far out classed and kept overstepping his range (fighting far too close and also attempting to take the legs and ending up turning his back and head on the short guy several times) but this allowed for some good technique from the dark haired guy.

Yes, thats true. I told him so, but he have to work on this some trainings more ...

The second fight had a few good leg attacks too but there definitely seemed a propensity to get those high kicks going more, maybe because of the gloves?
I dont know why there is some bouncing around though (breaking the root with the ground is done as little as possible in my training experience) and also there isn't much leg stability because of the very high stances which results in a lot of stumbling (thats also just a personal opinion).
B.T [/B]

I´m not quite sure, if I understand what you mean... hmm, stability could worked out better, thats right. Stumbling, I think thats because both are trying to keep the pressure high without finishing the fight. So the sweeps are very easy to finish. Both are tall and used to fight with smaller ones. So they try to use their
punches from a higher position.

Lots of handmoves we worked out with Au Lao Choy from any angle. Even with gloves: when you can´t grap than push!

Thank you all for the responce, and yes: I will take the critism to work on the mistakes!

[18elders]

Thanks for the clips, much better than the wing chun vs. mantis

[B.Tunks]

Bai Lung,

Originally posted by German Bai Lung

Stumbling, I think thats because both are trying to keep the pressure high without finishing the fight. So the sweeps are very easy to finish. Both are tall and used to fight with smaller ones. So they try to use their
punches from a higher position.

That makes sense.
thanks,
b.t

[Ren Blade]

I really wanted to see the videos but can't. I even tried right clicking both and doing the "save as". But I don't even know where to located my quicktime in my computer through browse to play these 2 vids when I'm asked to "open with".

But by what everyone is saying, they sound like worth watching. I want to see them anyway.

[fa_jing]

Very nice videos. I think that what we are seeing in the first clip is only possible when two students of the same style spar. That is my opinion. It is very useful to train this way - for developing flow among other things.

For the second clip, I was impressed by the typical Mantis throw performed by both of the students, as well as their handspeed. One thing that I would tell them though is that they spend too much time in punching range (for gloved fighting) - this gives more opportunity for the opponent to slip a punch past the defense - I think that they could use some clinching and either work the clinch or try to takedown the opponent from the clinch.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Very nice videos. I think that what we are seeing in the first clip is only possible when two students of the same style spar. That is my opinion. It is very useful to train this way - for developing flow among other things.

Yes that is possible. But more for the rules, not because of the techniques. Right now, there was no opportunity to do that with an external practitioner of another style.

Originally posted by fa_jing

For the second clip, I was impressed by the typical Mantis throw performed by both of the students, as well as their handspeed. One thing that I would tell them though is that they spend too much time in punching range (for gloved fighting) - this gives more opportunity for the opponent to slip a punch past the defense - I think that they could use some clinching and either work the clinch or try to takedown the opponent from the clinch.

The clinch and takedowns are at fact not at the best. But I work on it. Problem is the floor: its very solid (good for forms) with swinging ground but hard when you hit it! So we must be careful with takedowns otherwise we got to often ellbowfractures or something like that!

Thanks for the good tipps nevertheless!

[fa_jing]

I know what you mean about the floor. The few times that I ever got to train sparring in all ranges with intent, was in a friend's backyard - he has soft grass. That is even better for falling than a mat.

How do you learn to fall in Praying Mantis? I know only of two methods: one is the hand-slapping method favored by Japanese stylists but is primarily for use on mats...the other is the Shaui - chaio method which is to basically fists over ears, head down, knees up so you are curled into a ball.

[Tainan Mantis]

There is also slapping with the bottom of the foot.
This is good for oudoors, becasue people wear shoes so the foot and leg can absorb more energy than the hand slap method.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by fa_jing
one is the hand-slapping method favored by Japanese stylists but is primarily for use on mats...the other is the Shaui - chaio method which is to basically fists over ears, head down, knees up so you are curled into a ball.

The hand-slapping method is the one I was taught. The "rolling" during a fall is something I do kind of instintively, since I used to do Gymnastics. The "Fists over ears" is NOT something I do when I fall, but it makes sense if I'm gonna roll after a fall during combat. The Shaui-Chaio method is something I definitely have to try.

Thanks for sharing on this forum!

There is also slapping with the bottom of the foot.

I gotta try this one too! Thanks again Tainan!