Core of Tai Chi Chuan- Question?

[backbreaker]

• be as still as a mountain , move like a great river

• mountains have a wide base that narrows up to the tip like a pyramid

• Water flows in a path that is easiest and least resistant changing form and contantly flowing

[[Censored]]

Salmon swim upstream, and they literally swim themselves to death.

Are they going against the flow?
Have they invested in loss?
Are they NATURAL?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sure for a fish

[Roll Back]

"My understanding of tao is that it not only refers to being purely natural , but also refers to all things and the interconnectedness of all things as one in the universe, being one with the univers in perfect harmony, and in practice using free will according to the requirements of the tao rather than selfish desires ."

Reply) Yes this is what I was referring to with simple and going with the flow. To me selfish desires break the flow. Lets take that fish swimming up stream as an example: For the species to continue to exist the fish needs to swim up stream. This is the natural flow of that fish. Some may kill themselves in the attempt, but not to do would be selfish. To me this is no different than a parent sacrificing themselves for their children.

"I beleive in a way taiji is actually very simple as there are only two sets and alot of the moves are similar and build off of each other. I have heard in zhan zhuan standing you want solid full legs, and a flexible light body, which is clear yin and yang seperation.My opinion would be that taiji was developed to overcome or perhaps even reverse the laws of up-down, left-right, front-back, yin-yang; maybe even to the point that it is difficult to distingiush the different sides . So you would probably have to know the seperation before you can unify, I don't know."

Reply) OK, I am just playing a little devils advocate here. That is the theory but is that the reality? How many can actualize that theory?

"I beleive taoism is taoism because of the princples involved, but not the specific forms the princples take. If another culture had the same princples but they wrote them down differently and called taiji,I ching, and wu hsing by different names, it would not matter, the principles are compatible in the end(if you consider them real,not just charactristics associated in history with taoists). If you're saying because you know french , but cannot understand english, that french is unrelated in the end to english, well that's wrong. Taoism is not taoism because of where it originates or what lineage someone has or any other academic type thinking(although these factors can be indicative of real cultivation methods,they're not why it's real)."

Reply) Is what you are saying is that Taoism is universal? Yes I agree with that. I think classical fencing is very Taoist in its training and application. What makes Chinese Taoist different is their desire to reach immortality. Thus not only is it a good fighting method it is a method of not only a method of draining the body but of building the internal body to extend life.

"My guess as to why taiji is difficult to learn is because it contains many small internal movements which are difficult to see and the fajin movements require alot of training which is physically difficult. My guess at what distinguishes taijiquan from other styles would be internal U-turns which redirect the direction of the opponents attack back into him, along with having central equilibrium. Just my guess"

Reply) Good guess, I do not have the answer right now. My guess though it is so simple we are missing it.

"In fact I have heard if you don't combine internal with external, hard with soft , fast and slow changes, then it is not totally taiji."

Reply) Yes, I like that one.

"Also what about fajin? It would seem to take alot of energy."

Reply) That is one of my questions. Is fajin Taoist Chuan? Or an add on with Shaolin influence. It seems to me that fajin could be used against the person emitting it by a person that went with the flow and kept it simple.

"So I wonder about making progress and progressing in taiji, it seems to require effort , when other Tao school methods don't use as much force, but they use some force sometimes for specific reasons. Taiji as a martial art is probably more physical due to the fact that it's concerned with manipulating the phsical world with a more physical energy. At the higher levels of Taoist qigong and meditation there is less phsical force used and more mental energy. I don't know , it seems a complete system would contain hard and soft, martial arts, healing and meditation and moral cultivation. This is just my understanding and I don't know as much as some others in taiji or qigong.(but I know a little bit at least)"

Reply) Thanks this last paragraph is what I am exploring. After some time in Tai Chi I am staring to challenge and test the theories that I have been given. Kinda like a scientist doing testing and asking questions and not just accepting something as the truth. I think Tai Chi theory is good but at the same time I feel something is missing or misunderstood. If the theory of Tai Chi were actualized Tai Chi would dominate the UFC and other fight venues. Why is it not actualized?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Why is it not actualized?


Not many can really do it.

Those that can have no interest in these venues.

The idea that they are the only real test is kinda, mmm small minded.

Reveres the question, why is it that no named sportive player has gone to China looked for and challenged the highest people in each art and come back to tell every one about it ?

[brassmonkey]

I like your style Rollback, asking alot of tough questions. But is anyone here even qualified to compare Taoism and Tai Chi Chuan? There is a good comparison of the Tao Te Cheng and Yang TCC Classics in 1 of Douglas Wile's books.

[Roll Back]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Why is it not actualized?


Not many can really do it.

Those that can have no interest in these venues.

The idea that they are the only real test is kinda, mmm small minded.

Reveres the question, why is it that no named sportive player has gone to China looked for and challenged the highest people in each art and come back to tell every one about it ?

I agree, BUT, master's of old did compete. Why not now?

[Roll Back]

Originally posted by brassmonkey
I like your style Rollback, asking alot of tough questions. But is anyone here even qualified to compare Taoism and Tai Chi Chuan? There is a good comparison of the Tao Te Cheng and Yang TCC Classics in 1 of Douglas Wile's books.

Thanks, I'll look for the book. As for who is qualified, I have no idea. I decided to post here after reading other message boards and I felt that this board had a balance of knowing yet not knowing. If you know what, I mean?