|
|
|||||||
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
|
#151
08-11-2003, 02:40 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well then I'm glad you called attention back to this, as I want to see what your opinion is on a few things. First, I come from a martial tradition that is also a "family" tradition. We do train in certain Chan med, as well as Qi Gong. Now I know you don't train people in this, but let me put it in context to see if it makes sense to you considering you have a strong traditional background. When I train these things, I do so with the idea and belief that yin and yang are always together. So, if you train these so called yin excercises, it conversely has a potent yang effect. For example, many business people for years have been using chan med to increase their focus, and there is documented proof that this has increased the practitioners effectiveness in businees while at the same time lowered blood pressure and increased resistance to disease. So, in effect, a martial artist who uses this tool will gain a health benefit, but this is amplified by his focus being the martial aspect. So, he meditates in order to increase awareness during practice and to fight more loose. Same with Tai Chi. That is, you gain the greatest health benefit from Tai Chi if you primarily train the martial aspect of it.
This may seem like chi hippy stuff, but really I'm trying to put it in the context of how someone living in China from a 75-100 years ago would think of these things. It's really only in a modern western context that these things start to lose their roots. With the addition of modern fantasy mixed in with a judeo christian ethic do these practices lose their "Traditional" value. In essence, with challenge matches and tournaments that were often held for the competing martial artist, one would expect that if these did not have practical value, they would have been leveled at some point in time. Also, I'm not leaving out real fighting against real opponents or partner training either. The benefit of this is relevent and important, as your body, not your brain, has to understand the nuances of performing a technique, and getting hit in order to learn. It is difficult for the brain to manifest this without the body's involvement. Again, I think that practical chinese martial methedology embraces this in it's philosophy, and only it's current translation into the west has it lost this for the most part. This is why i appreciate San Shou, as it attempts to bring this back in cma. However, for me, the so called internal aspects of cma are important as well. I know I've transgressed a bit, but what are other's thoughts on this? 
|
|
#152
08-12-2003, 08:05 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
NOt really sure what you are getting at but ...
- "When I train these things, I do so with the idea and belief that yin and yang are always together." In san shou, you put to much weight on the front leg, it gets kicked, swept or you get taken down. You put too much weight on your back leg, you have no power in your strikes. Or, if you are too aggressive, you can walk into counter attacks, if you are too passive, you will be run over yin/yang exists in martial arts, but best as understood in practical terms. Far too much obsession with "esoteric" nonsense Train like a warrior and you will be healthy, but if you train like a raquet ball player you will also be healthy but you won't necesarilly be able to fight...
|
|
#153
08-12-2003, 10:04 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Shaolin business
The problem with Shaolin is that most people lump it all into one, then blame it on the temple. That's crazy. We're dealing with a population of tens of thousands of martial artists and only about 200 monks. Most martial artists judge Shaolin on those private schools or the tourist industry that surrounds Shaolin. That's because most of us are martial arts tourists.
Actually the temple is despartately trying to control the shaolin 'trademark' as they translate it so private industry cannot market stuff like shaolin brand sausages. But trademarking in China, well, even Bill Gates couldn't control it, so it's not so easy. The Shaolin rolex will always be a problem. As for the tablets, go to any Buddhist holy place and you'll see tablets from people who contributed to the restoration and maintainence of the site. At Bodh Gaya, where Buddha was enlightened, there are thousands of them in many shapes and forms from all over the world. It's part of the tradition, even more so in China. I don't see a problem with that tradition. Temples need money to maintain themselves. As for married "monks," no fully indoctrinated monk is married and no warrior monk should be married. Shaolin has a special tradition of warrior monks - wuseng - who do not take all the vows of fully indoctrinated monks. These are the monks that most of us deal with since most of us are martial artists. There are a several warrrior monks, who should obey the rules of Buddhism, but sometimes fail. Martial monks do not necessarily take all of the abstinence vows - they should, but sometimes they don't. Most of them leave when they get married, since they typically take vgows of chastity, but there is at least one who has not. Additionally, there are performance monks - these aren't monks at all, just students who dress in robes and perform as another source of income for the private schools. so that part is pretty muddled, but don't let a bunch of bad apples spoil the good ones. There is a body of forms that make up the Shaolin curriculam. This has been augmented by modern wushu, sanda, even tae kwon do. After all, if you have that many martial artists in one place, they tend to cross train - anything to get the advantage. But there is clearly a Shaolin curriculam that remains vital there. As for Chen being Shaolin, well, that's a whole other can of worms... As for Shaolin being good money, that's true, but foreign money isn't that much of it. My guess would it would only make up 5-10% of the income. Never never discount the magnitude of the population of China. While a fat walleted tourist or a shaolin tour on Letterman is a jackpot, the majority of Shaolin makes its income off of Chinese. As for Shaolin sanda, I never said it was a mecca for that. You'd be more of an authority on that, of course. Most of the Shaolin Sanda people go into the military. And I've been told that there were national champions that came from Shaolin, as well as Sandawang competitors, but I don't have any names to validate that. Let me get back to you on that. Congrats on the silver - was that the festival foreigners tournament? Even I've won a silver in one of those (and I'm darn proud of it  )
__________________
Gene Ching Associate Publisher Kung Fu Magazine & www.KungFuMagazine.com
|
|
#155
08-12-2003, 10:27 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Gene, I hope you see this as a discussion and not an argument. I, as you probably can see, like to be direct. I hate fluff, fantasy and mis-direction. Shaolin as an area, temple and private schools included, is indeed no simple issue. I suppose I could say my major issues have been the pretend monks at disney land, a few of the so called monks here in the US and much of the nonsense associated with them....
|
|
#157
08-12-2003, 01:54 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
I'm back Gene, I forgot to metion
Yes, I know there are some accepted "Shaolin" sets like Da Hong Quan, etc... and you could even argue that generations ago Chen Taiji was related to Shaolin, but when you are doing standardized contemporary wushu competition sets, made up in Goverment facilities less than 10 years ago and calling it Shaolin, well, I am sure you agree
|
|
#158
08-12-2003, 04:42 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
"The "fat" Buddha is named Hoti. He is a Chinese Buddha, but not THE Buddha. He is pretty much the Chinese Saint of good fortune, which is why he is fat, and usually pictured with kids."-------
No really chinese, He was a monk, nick name, the cloth sack monk. He suppose to be the reincarnation of Mitria boddhisatva. His sack will collect what others throw away without appreciation. He is not fat but has big belly. the big belly is symbolic of vast capasity of endurance and accept differences from all different people without judging. So, that is the root of good fortune. --px "That's precisely what Bodhidharma thought. Actually,though, there is nothing inherently un-Buddhist about having money or nice stuff. Only attachment is forbidden. "--------- but that is the difficult part. Next time go to a restorant and not attach to the great food; and when a cool guy or hot gal passes by not look for second eyes.  let see how many times i fail today
|
|
#159
08-12-2003, 11:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
__________________
Milia Macerusk
|
|
#160
08-13-2003, 06:59 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
__________________
The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers
|
|
#162
08-13-2003, 08:08 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Your little hands were never meant to poke out each others eyes...... unless your in competion and that's your objective and as for for phenix, You're misdirected guy because detattchment is the easy part. If you truly get your flow on and up your committment and focus that will look after itself. And for what Gene said about practicing shaolin and being fully indocrinated or even being wuseng and unprepared to be fully indocrinated doesnt that just comprimise the integrity of your committment and prority making it kind of naff (and excuse me if I'm offending anyone - but alternate perspective is welcome) and in fact isnt to practice cma any other way also naff since that would mean you obviously have the knowledge and are turning your back on on your own integrity and through the sub or not so sub conscious knowlege of that aren't you comprimising your own qi creating some kind of unresolved healing or issue around fear whole heatredness and therefore defeating the purpose of its existence ?  by the way - can women become wuseng?
|
|
#163
08-14-2003, 10:52 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
lkfmdc: Yes, I know this is a discussion, not an argument, and you raise good points. I engage them because I respect your opinion on the matter and feel it's a good opportunity to clear the air on some of these points. The "fluff and fantasy" is distracting, but I've found that it is par for the course with any spiritual practice. A lot of people seek a spiritual path as an easy way out. In fact, it is much harder then to be non-spiritual. But there's always those willing to take advantage of the easy-way people and part them with there money. I don't think this is unique to Shaolin, or even martial arts. It's just that Shaolin is crazier, more complicated.
As for the the government support, Shaolin, like many temples in China, has enjoyed government support for dynasties. What makes it weird is that the current regime is communist, and that disavows religion. Fortunately, communism doesn't work that well against religion, and after Deng Xiaopeng's revisions, religion is permitable again in China. As for the modern wushu, Shaolin has a history of absorbing other styles, refining them and turning them to their own devices. Shaolin has absorbed wushu and now is doing more opulent tours with it then even the more skilled Beijing Wushu team. Now, I do object to those shaoliners who just do wushu and no traditional at all. But Shaolin absorbs what is useful, and right now, wushu serves a purpose, performance for the masses. The masses can't appreciate traditional kung fu. It might disturb you more to find that Shaolin is absorbing Tae Kwon Do and has their sights on Muay Thai. A lot of this disregard of dogma actually descends from Tamo's original teachings. The tricky part is that anything can be called 'shaolin' or 'chan' if you take this philosophy and lose it's underpinnings. There are some wuseng who abuse this unfortunately. Hopefully they will wise up, since Shaolin is now ejecting wuseng for inappropriate behavior. Phenix: Hotai, or milofo, is the future Buddha, the Buddha of the next age. That's why he's so happy. blooming lotus: I've never seen a female wuseng. There are only a few nuns, less than a dozen. And Shaolin has yet to accept any non-Chinese monks, much less nuns.
__________________
Gene Ching Associate Publisher Kung Fu Magazine & www.KungFuMagazine.com
|
|
#164
08-14-2003, 11:38 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
I could just be funny and say that I look forward to being the first but really..................... I am a warrior. And while I understand the probable reason for non - chinese monk being as yet to be accepted I will go anyway.
|
|
#165
08-14-2003, 10:32 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
HI Gene, You are correct about Milofo. Mitria boddhisatva is Mile in sanscrit pronounciation since he is still waiting to become buddha. The Image of that big stomach is link to ....if memory serve.... Well, don't want to get everyone confuse. better stop here. I was just too buddhist. :-) As for the Shao Lin, Imho, in the Shao LIn history as we can see, there were a few times of revolution. Which were collecting martial arts around china... Such as the incident of Ceah Yuen and Bai Yue Feng, and the begining of Qing when those generals and Ming Martial artist get together.... So, IMHO, I see the evolution of Shao Lin is a natural things. Since the similar pattern happen before. And those event always push Shao LIn Martial art to another peak everytime it happen in history. As for the abusing, to be honest with Buddhism history in China, even at Damo's time, there were monks from other sect of Buddhism trying to kill him. At the six patriach times monks in his temple also try to kill him. So, IMHO, in reality, it is not that "pure" an environment. When there is Buddha there always demon king. Otherwise there will have no contrast. But, Shao Lin has been lucky to survive for thousand of year.... So, there sure some one great appear every generation or two. certainly we can look at it in a possitive and negative view. However, IMHO, look at the bright and good side, and as the Buddha's word, " when one meets monks who is not practising properly. Ignore them with silence." Just my two cents. Last edited by Phenix; 08-14-2003 at 10:38 PM.
|
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|
Linear Mode
