Sonnet From A Great Grandmaster

[Tainan Mantis]

A quote from Huang Hanhsun(WHF)'s Beng Bu book.

I have enclosed a file with quote and picture so others can make ammendments to my translation.

Later I will post a relevent question.

Here, this quote is attributed to WHF's grandteacher Fan Hsudong.
This sonnet is specifically written for the enclosed picture.

"Fanche and Mantis rely upon each other,
Especially good is attacking from afar and striking when near,
The step of the Tiger Riding Posture is a sudden leap,
The uniting and dispersing changing strike is most reliable"

[ninjaboy]

would someone please explain for me how the term 'fanche' is being used in this picture? i'm familiar with our version of this form and we of course have this posture but i would've described the right arm in this pic more as 'kwa'. anyone have time to expand on that?

thx!
neil

[mantis108]

First and foremost, great stuff Tainan. Thanks

My thoughts on this:

<<<Here, this quote is attributed to WHF's grandteacher Fan Hsudong.
This sonnet is specifically written for the enclosed picture.>>>

We have to bare in mind that a lot of "saying" or material for that matter would be attributed to the "higher ups" due to convention of the time. I am not saying this is not real just that we have to put a disclaimer as a prudent measure IMHO.

"Fanche and Mantis rely upon each other,"

I think rely is kind of relative. It implies that Fanche's weakness is being covered by mantis and vice versa. I am more inclined to think that the underlying message is that they "work together" as a pair. Nothing wrong with your translation. Just my presonal choice would be towards "togetherness". I think in this case, the hands are Fanche while the stance is mantis.

"Especially good is attacking from afar and striking when near,"

Good choice of words. It leads into line 4.

<<<The step of the Tiger Riding Posture is a sudden leap,>>>

I think this line describes the dynamic disposition of the stance/posture. Bun Teng is a term for describing the horses running and kicking motion. In relation to this move, the feeling should be like a horse being let out of the corral. I think sudden leap is very literal in this case. It works. BTW, is that where your question lies?

"The uniting and dispersing changing strike is most reliable"

This is rather confusing. I think the message is neutralizing incoming attacking and becoming a counter attacking ( or strike which echoes line 2) immediately as if the moves are one motion. There is a slight difference in timing between this and attacking defense simultaneously. It is of note that this sonnet seems to suggest the "proper" use of Fanche is a strike. I don't have a suggestion for the translation of this line yet.

Also another thing of note is that this move's footwork, the little hop forward, which has several variants in the form, seems to be where the name of the form came from (at least it would seem so in the 7 Stars tradition). Actually, I don't think everyone would do a little hop. Some do some don't. Personally, I think the little hop is where the "secret" is.

Just my take on the sonnet and the move.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[ninjaboy]

hey bungda07,

thx but would you expand on this left arm fanche regarding direction of movement, attacking surface, etc??

hey mantis108,

i also think the 'little hop' is key but we play with a stomp, not a hop.

thx,
neil

[mantis108]

I considered to say stomp, which I believe Tainan showed me that too in his version (Taiwan 7 Stars?). But then I thought "little hop" would be more in keeping with the rest of the "footwork" of the form IMHO. The stomp does lend to the power generation in this case. I think it is more or less a question of "hard" (stomp) or "soft" (hop) approach to the same move. Either way would be fine IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantis108
I considered to say stomp, which I believe Tainan showed me that too in his version (Taiwan 7 Stars?). But then I thought "little hop" would be more in keeping with the rest of the "footwork" of the form IMHO.

English language doesn't really have a suitable word for this footwork which we refer to as din bo. I think you'd have to call it a stomping hop.

We use this footwork for quickly breaking inertia and generating striking force within a short distance. Sometimes people have a problem due to stomping only, and making lots of noise without generating any forward force. Or else they have a problem due to hopping only which takes too long and doesn't generate sharp explosive power.

For us, we do it as a combination of a hop/drop and a stomp so that the body becomes unweighted and the impact of the "stomp" propels the body and strike forward in a sharp explosive manner. I use this footwork frequently.

N.

[B.Tunks]

-N-

Originally posted by -N-

English language doesn't really have a suitable word for this footwork which we refer to as din bo. I think you'd have to call it a stomping hop.

We use this footwork for quickly breaking inertia and generating striking force within a short distance. Sometimes people have a problem due to stomping only, and making lots of noise without generating any forward force. Or else they have a problem due to hopping only which takes too long and doesn't generate sharp explosive power.

For us, we do it as a combination of a hop/drop and a stomp so that the body becomes unweighted and the impact of the "stomp" propels the body and strike forward in a sharp explosive manner. I use this footwork frequently.

N.

Nice description!

b.t

[mantis108]

Thanks -N-. for the input. It is din bo. I agreed totally and thanks for sharing the insight.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

Brendan, Robert,

Thanks for comments.

I wish someone explained din bo to me like that when I was learning. Though maybe it wouldn't have helped anyway. My instructions had been, "Do like this. Why can't you do it?!"

As it was, it probably took me 3 years to figure out how it was supposed to work. Then more time after that to be able to do it.

Norman.

[B.Tunks]

Oh, thats you Norman! G'day.

On the following:


My instructions had been, "Do like this. Why can't you do it?!"

Thats the way it was for me too.
Thank god for the old school, ha ha.

Good to hear from you,
b.t

[-N-]

B.T.,

Yep, me here. I don't post very often, but I read the forum regularly. I've been appreciating your posts and the posts from the rest of the mantis community. Thanks.

N.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks all for the comments.

My question has to do with why the term fanche comes up in this sonnet.

According to WHF this technique was called Beng Bu and he is the one who changed the name to Fanche.

Another manuscript, I think I got it from Carl Albright's web page, lists this move as Shoot to Sky Catapult(chong tien pao).
(I thought catapult describes the action better than cannon.)

So, if it is WHF who changed the name of the technique from Beng Bu to Fanche, then I would think that Fan Hsudong wouldn't have used the term fanche for this sonnet.

Still hoping that this sonnet was really written by Fan(I can hope can't I) is there any explanation why he used the term fanche?

[Tainan Mantis]

bungda07,
Why do you call this move small fanche?
Neither forms small or large fanche have this technique.

The old manuscripts from before Luo's time clearly describe the meaning of fanche. It is without a doubt the technique tha appears in the form Hsiaoand Da Fanche.

Also, this type of motion is common to many types of PM.

While the technique depicted here is unique to 7*(to my knowledge).

That is if you do the move as an inverted straight punch.

Very similar technique, but done more as a backfist, but with different names appears in other PM styles.

Mantis 108,
Thanks for the help on the translation.
I know it is unlikely that this sonnet was written by Fan but I want to explore the topic further.

Good point on the word rely.
Togetherness, it is so big, any other choices?

About the fourth line, it is just using different language to describe the concept of stealing.
These 4 characters are tough to translate.

About your stomping hop.
I felt that a catapult does a good job of describing how I shoot off the power.

-N-,
Very good description on your part.
Do you have an alternate name for this move?

[webbb82]

Hi all,

Kevin, this is my attempt when I first translated it from Su's book which contains the same gejue.

Here is the pinyin, for those interested:
Fan che tang lang liang xiang yi,
Yuan gong jin da you chen yi,
Mai bu kua hu shi ben teng,
Lian xiao hua da geng ke shi.

My translation was very similar to yours:
Turning a waterwheel and praying mantis both rely on each other,
Particularly when attacking from a distance and striking when close,
The step of straddling a tiger is a powerful gallop,
The linking and disappearing transforming attack is again most dependable.
I will now go back over the translation, as I'm not happy with the fourth line. This Bufa is what I call Bengbu.
J.

[webbb82]

Hi Tainan,

Here there is two movements with the same name (fanche), like you have described the original as from the form Fanche - Da fanche, Xiao Fanche etc. As (I presume) most Hong Kong practitioners call both movements Fanche so a way of dividing them is necessary. For example the original technique is called Da Fanche, whilst the other posture (in Dengshan, Qixing, Kuahu or xubu) is referred to as just Fanche or sometimes Xiao Fanche.

J.