some help with mantis terminology

[MantisifuFW]

Puma,

If you ever wish to drop down to Texas and visit, we would be happy to assist in your training. We have several practitioners from different lines of Tanglang who make visits to us and train with my students. We video these visits so that they can take the material home to practice and share until we can get together again.

Get with me off list if you should decide to do so. I could probablly help with that Wing Chun stuff too.

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

First off thank you all for the support and the kind words. I really appreciate them. BTW, it would be great to hear the feedback of my article. So for those of you who have already read it please feel free to share your thoughts.

Hi Brendan,

Thank you very much for the support. I am glad that you enjoy the article. It would be great to be able to meet up and do some training and exchanging. I am all for sharing. It would truely be wonderful to fulfill GM Chiu's wish to bring this beneficial training methodology to the greater Praying Mantis community and perhaps even the Kung Fu community in general.

Hi Sifu Cottrell,

I have to personally thank you for giving me the oppotunity to share the wisdom of GM Chiu. I believe the Mantis Quarterly is one of the most exciting things that is happening to our community. The fact that this on going project brings together many Mantis stylists from different corners of the world sharing their knowledge and insights is worth a huge celebration already. Your organizational and networking skills are truely amazing. BTW, I hear you on a follow up article which hopefully will have pictures this time. Thank you for the invite. It means a lot.

Hi Puma,

You are most welcome. Best wishes and good luck to your study.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[B.Tunks]

Bi Shou is also the name for the downwards sweeping double palms that accompany Xia Bu (which is the retreating cross step)after the Bi Men Jiao or Yaun Yang Jiao (which ever kick you are doing), in Zhaiyao Yi Lu and most other Tanglang forms. Of course this movement looks quite different between the mainland and H.K versions.
Mantis 108 is also correct with the other description of Bi Shou.
b.t

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Brendan,
Is there a difference between bi men jiao and yuan yang jiao?
In the forms that are common between meihua and 7* PM it is called bimen jiao in 7*, but in meihua it is usually called yuanyang jiao, or tortoise flipper or some other name like that.

So I thought bimen was just the 7* terminology.
But then I have seen some do yuan yang jiao like the double jump kick, er chi jiao also.

What do you think?

puma,
like you I wanted PM even though I couldn't find a shrfu.

I learned my PM from a book when I was 15 while I studied TKD.
Later I had the chance to study with a student of the man who made the book.
MC Chan and Art D.

Art encouraged me to go to Asia and continue my studies in 1989 and have been here since.

[webbb82]

Hi all,

(jiao fa) Good question! BT is the man to ask on this one! but this is what I've experienced.
Yuanyang jiao (mandarin ducks kick) is definetitely an old name in mainland TLQ (found in Qixing, meihua, taiji etc). Its unique and is performed singularly or double (two kicks) like you said you have seen Kevin.
'Some people' say Bimen jiao and Yuanyang jiao are the same kick, they are certainly close in nature (attacking the groin, stomach - or specifically the area of ren12 (zhongwan), Kid19 (yindu)). Whilst some differenciate the kicks (as can be seen in some shandong tanglang quanpu) - which contain both Bimen jiao/yuanyang jiao. Dam, I think I starting to confuse things! Anyway, I've only come across the name in mainland TLQ, outside I've always had it referred to as Bimen. I think in 'some practitioners' there is also a difference in the way the sole of the foot points on extension? Anyway, that's off the top of my head so don't take it as 100%.

[Tainan Mantis]

webbb82,
Thanks for the answer.
In Li Kunshan's manuscript, as I recall, bimen jiao is never used.
Fan Jian Jiao and Ao Yu Jiao are used which are similar to bimen jiao.

But the angle of the kick is different owing to the fact that I use my right foot when the opponent is in a left stance.

Most of the time Yuan Yang Jiao is called Ling Hsing..or" mandarin duck kick before departing."

I thought this was appropriate as the kick is one, but the departing jump looks like a "pair" which goes hand in hand with the meaning of Yuan Yang... always in a pair.

Which brings us to Yuan Hou Bu as this step is also called.
But I seem to recall some other people do a different movement for Yuan Hou Bu(Monkey/gibbon step).

[B.Tunks]

Hi all.

Tainan wrote;

Is there a difference between bi men jiao and yuan yang jiao?
In the forms that are common between meihua and 7* PM it is called bimen jiao in 7*, but in meihua it is usually called yuanyang jiao, or tortoise flipper or some other name like that.
So I thought bimen was just the 7* terminology.

Bi Men Jiao and Yuanyang Jiao are both found in mainland Qixing.

also;

But then I have seen some do yuan yang jiao like the double jump kick, er chi jiao also.

Yuanyang Jiao is more commonly seen across the martial board as linked double kick but in the case of these kicks it is certainly a single kick. This kick can be delivered as a jump kick (very often so in Tou Tao Quan) but is always single jump kick and the foot is attacks in the same fashion.

webbb82 wrote;

'Some people' say Bimen jiao and Yuanyang jiao are the same kick, they are certainly close in nature (attacking the groin, stomach - or specifically the area of ren12 (zhongwan), Kid19 (yindu)). Whilst some differenciate the kicks (as can be seen in some shandong tanglang quanpu) - which contain both Bimen jiao/yuanyang jiao.

also;

I think in 'some practitioners' there is also a difference in the way the sole of the foot points on extension? Anyway, that's off the top of my head so don't take it as 100%.

This is what I have been taught, Yaunyang Jiao (as a single kick), curves in just before contact when kicking to a point behind a leg or arm. Bimen Jiao maintains the same foot angle throughout. To tell the truth, both are generally regarded as interchangable terms for the same kick by most people in TLQ. Qixing tends to most commonly use Bi Men Jiao. These kicks have many names, I can think of at least three other names for the same kicks in the same forms.

Tainan also wrote;

But the angle of the kick is different owing to the fact that I use my right foot when the opponent is in a left stance.

With my own training in application we learnt to kick both inside and outside on either side of the opponent with the same kick (doesn't make sense but I know what I mean, ha ha)...

b.t

[webbb82]

Hi Kevin,

Yuanhou bufa - Can you tell us the different ways your referring to?
Most people on here will be familiar with the stationary posture (zhongshi) and Baiyuan Qingke - where this is used. The main ways I can think of off the top of my head would be:
Yuanhou bu (advancing) - Laijiao (advancing/provoking (i.e grabbing) with the front foot advancing then the back foot.
or Yuanhou bu retreating - back foot retreats then the front foot.

[Shaolin-Do]

Mantis108-
On the drilling punch or whatever being like an uppercut to Rhen zong, er Ren Zhong (sp?) wouldnt a downwards backfist be more apropriate to hit that point? Just seems that it would be difficult to get with an uppercut, uppercut landing on the bottom of the nose more likely. (which is good too)


And BTW - Just want to give thx, and congrats to all you PM guys on here for keeping this forum VERY MA and PM oriented, bei doing a good job keeping it from straying. I enjoy being able to come to this forum for serious kung fu talk and helpful insights.

[mantis108]

The Filing punch is "somewhat" of an uppercut. One could say this is the Mantis version of an uppercut. I think it might actually qualify for a shovel punch which in my mind has a slighter angle bend at the elbow. The use of uppercut in boxing usually goes to the body either to bring the opponent's defense low and then attack high. This is not the case in Mantis. Using a Boxing uppercut to attack the opponent's nose might get yourself into a key lock (figure 4) easily if you are not careful. Remeber Kung Fu unlike boxing, we don't use glove and are allowed to grab.

The filing punch is like a straight armed uppercut or shovelling punch that is "accompanied" by a lu Shou (grabbing hand). It is fast like a jab and targets the Ren Zhong point that is right underneath the nose. It is by no means a backfist. If that happens, I am affraid that's just being clumsy in execution. In Mantis training, the purpose of Cho Tsui (filing punch) is to learn to attack with accuracy to one of the 8 strike areas namely the Ren Zhong. This is important as a mantis transmission or lesson if you will. This is the difference between learning from a traditional system and a new found McWhatever (no disrespect intended). Instead of going for a basketful of targets in the proximatety of the intended target randomly, Mantis is highly developed to the point that specific terminologies on techniques are established to convey the messages. It is about the art not the practitioner's ego [re: instant gratification in hitting something]. It is kind of like playing pool. You call the shots, you'll have to make the shots.

BTW, it is said that the Japanese soldiers used to test a "corpse" by poking a bayonet into the RenZhong point. A fake vitim could never pass this test and would become a real corpse.

Hope this help

Also thank you for participating in the forum in helping to bring this wonderful art into the lime light.


Hi Tainan, Brendan and All,

I think the BiMen Jiao, Yuan Yang Jiao, Ao Yu Jiao are different in the way the preceeding moves are.

Bi Men Jiao (close door kick) - passive reactive

If my doors (hands) are closed (obstructed), I do a Bi Men Jiao to get away or turn the table arround.

Yuan Yang Jiao (Mandarin Duck kick) - proactive reactive

I crash against a door (beng) it is closed, so I do a Yuan Yang Jiao to test/take the lower gate or to stop opponent to follow in while I regroup (retreat and return) to attack from another angle.

Ao Yu Jiao (turtoise flipper kick) - Instinctive reactive

This, btw, is found in Mimen Lanjie book as one of the 10 no blocking countering moves "Bu Jiao Bu Jia Shr Lu Po Fa". Simply put, dodge and kick to the lower gate.

I think Brendan made a very good point in the level of control the kick has. I remember GM Chiu used to demonstrated this on a Iron palm bag bench that is about waist level. He kicked the ledge of the bench with the ball of his foot (he wore very nice Italian leather shoes btw. lol...) with great speed and accuracy. I believe he was 89 at the time. It was amazing to see the level of control that he had.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Shaolin-Do]

**** dude, I really want to spar with either you or Tainan. Seem to have a lot of good to share.
Too bad I live in South South South texas...

Pressure points are kinda kept secret from SDers till you get 3rd black or so... I do a lot of outside studying however. Know the points to hit
Rhuzong, Ren Zhong... cant remember the names very well. I know where they are tho. In the "white monkey exits the cave" form I have, all attacks target either - LI 13, ST 9, St 8, ... hell... Whats the one on the siatic nerve? And one shot to Ren Zhong
Oh well... Gotta do more studying. Basically only those 4 the entire form tho.

But the attack to Ren Zhong, comes after an elbow, the left hand comes down as if trapping the oppositions right hand, and the right elbow rolls over the back of the left palm and basically backfists the point.

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Thank you for making the case for the Tsor Choi, uppercut being the long technique with minimal bend. There has been a prevelant movement to change it into the short uppercut you mentioned.

I remembered when my sifu, Brendan Lai, demonstrated this technique for me. It was in my face before I knew. It came circling near my buttons, up my stomach and chest to below my nose on a line below my peripheral vision. My sifu was not one to hold back his hand so the experience was singular and one that I have not forgotten.

Many today have a closely bent arm version of the technique thinking that it is "more effective". It is sad to see such wisdom ignored.

Thanks for the knowledgeable post,

Steve Cottrell

[B.Tunks]

Originally posted by mantis108

This is the difference between learning from a traditional system and a new found McWhatever (no disrespect intended). Instead of going for a basketful of targets in the proximatety of the intended target randomly, Mantis is highly developed to the point that specific terminologies on techniques are established to convey the messages. It is about the art not the practitioner's ego [re: instant gratification in hitting something]. It is kind of like playing pool. You call the shots, you'll have to make the shots.

Mantis108 [/B]

Well 108 has brought up a very interesting point.
I agree that in this art there are definitely certain techniques that are to be applied only a specific intended target.
However, there has always been in my Tanglang fighting training 'Plan-B' options for many attacks and also many attacks that can be applied to several spots. Many attacks are certainly only to be applied in one specific manner but there are many that have multiple appliction options (eg; arm locks foot combinations that work on either hand or leg, either inside or outside).
This certainly may not be the case in the Taiji Tanglang practiced by 108, but it is in the case of the Tanglang I have learned.
I'm certain that you would be most unimpressed with the amount of applications I would show for most movements in even the most basic form such as Cha Chui. Though I feel quite fortunate to have been shown so many variations.
Mantis 108 what is your personal experience on this?
I do agree that many people who teach Tanglang teach only an 'approximation'.

In regards to your analysis of the kicks; very nice!

In regards to the uppercut; there are a few kinds including the deeply crooked arm method but they are all quite different to the filing punch.
b.t

BTW, Webbb 82; it sounds like you know a fair bit about the mainland stuff. What do you train?

[webbb82]

Hi all,

Sorry BT for not introducing myself - feel a bit ashamed because I have not talked to some of you guys for a long time (years!) due to getting an education which is just about coming to an end!!..can't wait.
I'm J (Rodriguez) from England - you know who I am! - mainly trained Qixing.
Hope you, your wife and family are all going strong. Best wishes.

Just like to say 'what's up' to Kevin, Steve and Robert - nice to 'see' you all on here.

Respectfully.

P.S, Mr. Cottrell - is issue 2 out in the UK yet? I'm still waiting out here!

[MantisifuFW]

Indeed issue two of Mantis Quarterly has been sent to the UK some weeks ago. I will email and ensure that they got it. (Shows what happens when you assume, lol).

I really am having a ball doing the Quarterly. The quality of the writing and technical articles have been excellent, the willingness of photographers to share some stunning images of places many practitioners may never see otherwise has been fantastic and the subscription rate internationally already has paid for the first year; something I would have NEVER imagined.

Mantis108 is right. One day, (maybe in December after I finish this book on how to translate the WHF books ), we should start considering a get together to celebrate!

Anyway, I will check and you let me know when you get it and what you think.

Steve Cottrell