Lets all argue about forms.

[Xebsball]

thnx, ol homie

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour


Have you ever seen basketball, socer or rugby. Everytime when player have to pass other players, their posture must be sunk because aim is not to run fast in straight line but being able to move in mutliple direction. If you want mobility in any martial arts, you must be sunk.

for stability yes. as for mobility, tell that to sacked quarter backs. once they have set themselves, they are stable and can throw. not very mobile though.

And question is what kind of training would you suggest to train oneself to be sunk. I reccomend doing form paying particular emphasis on being sunk or doing horsestance.

argh.... I wonder if the walls are listening? like I said, nothing wrong with form.

The problem is that you seem to have no experience of studying style which has form performance as part of curiculum.

I trained tang so do for two years, shotokan for three under a japanese guy who was strict about form and longfist for 4. Trust me - that's not a problem. The problem you seem to have is that everything you say is theoretical... I would guess that you don't get to test it much.

You first came off attacking form because it is very inefficient way to learn techniques. Of course it is. Performing form, by definition, cannot be better than doing drill work for only one technique because entire point of performing form is to perform various technique in sequence.

that's not the entire point or forms, IMO, but all of the things you are training with the forms can be trained with single tech forms, other than footwork, which you can still drill.

The point you are missing is that form performance is a type of drill work. But it is not drill work for particular technique but for particular principle. When you do drill for a technique, you are attempting to improve this technique. When you perform form, you are trying to improve certain quality in body alignment, footwork and flexibility and so on, which suits given style's particular combat strategy.

and what you fail to realize is that a single technique drill can drill a principle just fine. triangle cut, elbow locking, shearing, etc. All principles drilled by single technique forms. you perform them for all the reasons you stated.

As I sated in other thread, I can do drill work for being sunk by performing form in extremely law stance. When I perform dao form, I'm doing drill work for using my hip. When I do spear, I'm doing dirll work for generating power. Criticising weapon form because weapon is not used in empty hand competition is like criticising weight lifiting training because you don't carry weight in competition.

as usual, you miss what I said. I didn't criticize weapon work. I was talking about dividing your regimen even more when you add it into the mix. quite obviously when you are doing drills, weapons, forms, sparring, etc. you are able to focus on less. so your training is less specific. when you are training for a shiai, do you train all throws you know, or just the ones you know you are eefective with and can win with? you have your core set of throws, right? same thing applies here. the more you add, the less specific you are. sport fighters tend to be more specific because things like weapons and long forms are left out.

As of you saying you are relaxed, thought I should not judge your degree of relaxation without seeing your performance, I should point out to you that there is huge difference between someone who is relaxed above average individuals and someone whose relaxation come from spending significant amount of time by doing specialised training to be relaxed. In my taijiquan class, I have to tell every beginner to relax so often and they have no idea what that means until they invested significant portion of their time doing form performance.

I agree with that. the same applies to grappling.

The reason form performance is emphasised in Kung Fu is that it teach particular quality of bodily movement which become foundation to learning technique. Just like form is inferior method to learn individual technique, drill work for individual technique and sparing are inferior method of learning these principles because their specialised fucntion are not desinged to train for these things.

Go to a bjj class. you may even do it in judo. elbow escape drills and several other drills are the foundation of basic principles like hip movement, or moving certain limbs simultaneously. nothing inferiour about it.

As I stated and you agreed, it is bad idea to train beginner just by sparing because he pick up bad habits immediately. Therefore, one must introduce beginner to doing drill work for major technqiue before throwing him into sparing.

Counldn't this same logic apply by stating that it is bad idea to train beginner only by technique drilling because he pick up bad habits immediately? Therefore, one must introduce beggiern to doing form so that he built up correct body coordination and alignement which let him pick up individual technique far faster and better than someone who hasn't done form performance.

Like I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with doing a technique slowly in beginning stages. it's not necessary to remain at that stage forever though. that is still no argument in favor of a long form.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour
As of judo not having form but having only kata for individual technique, this is entirely due to the way Japanese marital arts system is designed (karate is originated from kung fu so it doesn't count). In Japanese martial arts, the principle of style is taught by categorising kata into group in which each collection of kata has specific purpose to train for particular principle.

For example, the major principle of judo technique set up by Kano Jigoro is the concept of Kuzushi (breaking opponent bodily structure). If you ever done judo kata, every kata you are introduced in the beggining start by pulling or pushing opponent. Not only that every major judo throw come from one signle uchikomi posture which manifest into 12 different throws each with 100s of variation. In high level, there is collection of kata known as kaeshi no kata (kata of counter) which was developed by one of the top student of Kano Jigoro. In kaeshi no kata, instead of pulling or pushing opponent, every technique is done by you following rather than resisting opponent's throw upto a point. If you can do that, at certain point, you have structural superiority to opponent, which enable you to perform counter.

So in Japanese martial arts, thought each kata is a mere drill work for individual technique, how kata is grouped together and introduced to student perform exactly the same function as forms in kung fu.

I think that's the first thing you've ever said that I completely agree with. That was a beautiful post. the following thing is what I'm trying to work on - a guy in bjj was ranked 3rd in the world in judo two years ago and he reccomended that to me. plus I am getting to the ranks where I need to be moving like that. my shuai chiao group has drills that are designed to teach that.

[SevenStar]

http://bjj.org/articles/harris-physical.html
http://bjj.org/articles/harris-effectiveness.html

I've posted those before, but it's been a while.

[Vapour]

Nice, links. Seems that every high level martial artist aslo emphaise principles as well as technique. On the other hand, his advice to balance and coordination seems to be

"focusing on it for an extended period of time"
"he must focus on the mechanics and structure of each technique"
"you must focus on your mechanics"

Though I agree that one can improve by focusing on particular aspect in drill work or randori, my take is that one can make progress in such aspect faster and better by doing training which is specifically designed to improve this particular aspect, that is form.

You objection to form is that one must divert extra time away from doing drill work for each techniques. But with this logic, you never need anything other than randori. While you doing randori, you could concentrate on few technique. While doing randori, you could concentrate on balance. While doing randori, you could concentrate on mechanics. Doing drill work divide time away from randori. But everyone seems to agree that doing particular training which focus on one aspect save significant amount of time in long run. And as I stated, form is a type of drill work for principles instead of technique.

If your training focus is one particular principle, in judo, you must do various techniques because one technique will train you only limited range of this principle, or you can perform form which has multiple of techniques whose sequence and combination is designed specifically to train for such principle.

Unfortunately, recent spread of McDojo has caused forms to be taught in ways which are devoid of meaning. It is often taught as a way to keep student to study longer. Taijiquan is the worst where most practioner don't do it for martial arts and someone who done few month of seminar start teaching in local health center. This does not mean that there are people who can teach the original purpose of form.

I'm just pointint out that Kung Fu as martial arts "system" is organized in a way that has specialised exercise, i.e. form, which is designed to train certain bodily attribute such as balance, coordination, relaxation and flexibility. And trust me on this but when you perform taijiquan form correctly, you will sweat because it is very very hard. And of course, this should be combined with other training such as technique drilling, sparing and weight training. Consider Kung Fu form, especially taijiquan form, as moving yoga exercise. In that way, it is much more easy to understand its purpose. Afterall, Shaolin Kung Fu was started by Bodhidharma, Indian Buddhist monk.

Royce Gracie, if I remember correctly, for example, practice Yoga. Here is a link recommending bjj practioner to do yoga.

http://www.roylergracie.com/articles...do-garcia.html

"if you're just standing around on both legs, gravity is a piece of cake. Now try standing on the balls of your feet, squat down until your thighs are parallel to the ground, and hold that pose for 10 controlled breaths. That's yoga!"

Well I say "That's horsestance!"

[Vapour]

Correction. It is Rickson Gracie not Royce who parctice Yoga. And to be honest, I think Yoga could be more helpful to groundwork than tajiquan form because in tajiquan, we focus on strenght for lower body and focus on relaxation for upper body. But on ground, since you feets are not on the ground, your upperbody need to have lot of strenght.

I also should mention that, in Yang taijiquan (variation of which I practice), they have this fast form called san shou form A&B which in my school are taught once you learned the foundation form. There is form A and B which work as a counter to each other. You learn either one and then you learn it as two person form with partner. It has lot of lock and throw as well as strike.

In advance level, each side will make attack for real in which it is respoinsibility of other to counter it. Given that every one of your attack will be responded by counter attack which you have to counter, when advance practioner perform it, it is extremely fast and furious. First time I tried, I got busted by the first move. It is easy to block attack, it is far harder to counter it because you have to parry and attack at the same time. So you see, it is possible to train with resistance even doing form.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I knew about rickson. they also say he's virtually immovable when he sinks his weight. No stance work. No forms.

[Vapour]

Given the charisma of Rickson, and the number of comments Rickson or Wallid made over years about yoga giving them the edge in their fighting, I won't be suprised if someone in bjj come up with yoga specifically desinged for bjj. This might even include power yoga, where one move from one posture to another in sequence. They might not call that a bjj form but the purpose of such yoga exercise would be exactly same as the taijiquan form.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of taijiquan as a kicboxing/chinna arts, strenghth and flexibility one obtains from the forms are concentrated mainly on lower body. For upper body, main forcus is relaxation because the focus is speed of strike, lock or escape from lock. Most kungfu forms has little strength training on upper body. Having said it, Shaolin Kung Fu is said to have about 900 forms so I won't be surprised if there is a form which is designed specifically for that.

In grappling it is your upper body which require strenght and flexibility such as ability to twist your body or maintain bridge or reach your arm out to make a grab which is critical in using leverage . So if your focus is on grappling, yoga may be better arts to study than, say taijiquan form though I find taijiquan great help in judo standing work.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Vapour


http://www.roylergracie.com/articles...do-garcia.html

"if you're just standing around on both legs, gravity is a piece of cake. Now try standing on the balls of your feet, squat down until your thighs are parallel to the ground, and hold that pose for 10 controlled breaths. That's yoga!"

Well I say "That's horsestance!"

Nice link. However, that's not horsestance, it's a Yoga pose that is good for your balance and good for the arches of your feet.

[dezhen2001]

sounds like a type of horse stance training to me
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/imag...rouching_b.jpg

dawood

[Xebsball]

I believe at first Rickson and Royler do Yoga. Probably other bjjers might have adopted this same pratice too.

[yenhoi]

7*:

I believe its as much the students responsibility to filter the teacher as it is teachers to teach good stuff. If you arent questioning what you are learning and trying to figure it out and make sense of it all - its your fault when you get duped, not the ******* thats just trying to make a living.

On FMA, I have been shown several stick carenzas that are just as long as all three of my WC forms. Its neat that they can be practiced two person as well as solo, but a carenza's main purpose is usually solo technique and form training, muchlike a cma form. IMO.

[Xebsball]

Rickson's stuff... his fighting stance, its a lot like tradicional styles stances because it DOES come from a tradicional stance from a tradicional style, thas all im saying the rest you figure out yoself

[Black Jack]

FMA has long forms????

I have yet to ever hear of a kali system which teaches what would be called a traditional form or forms period.

Rogue- I would only say those become counterproductive if the player took them to be more than what they are. Just tools and not actual free-fighting.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
7*:

I believe its as much the students responsibility to filter the teacher as it is teachers to teach good stuff. If you arent questioning what you are learning and trying to figure it out and make sense of it all - its your fault when you get duped, not the ******* thats just trying to make a living.

That's easy for us to say, but take someone with no prior MA knowledge and limited, if any access to the net. They won't know what to compare against, what to ask, etc. and even if they did, they may not, as they are expecting to be properly taught.