Alan Orr Wing Chun Question's 7 - Angles and Pressure

[guy b.]

Unfortunately hard work and sweat is over rated, you will never advance much.

I look at hard sparring as taking a test, you don't improve much, you just find out where you are in application. Taking test over and over will not help much, finding out why you are wrong and correcting that will advance you.

How you learn the correction is key to using it.

In WC like most other arts, a high level is not learned from practicing patty cake with each other, it is found from changing inside to out, a transformation that does not come from hard sparing, but needs to be found first, then used.


Cheers

Completely untrue. Hard work is the genesis of real kung fu. Waiting for the answer from someone else will get you nowhere

[Alan Orr]

Who is really good at wrestling in the UK? Lol. The whole country is second rate

It is truly shameful for you to suggest that wing chun is somehow "deeper" than wrestling. This is playing to the vulnerability and fantastic hopes of the inexperienced. I have talked to some MMA guys about you. It was an interesting discussion. They thought your guys were good though.

There is lots of great wrestling in the UK.

I am not saying my wing chun is deeper that wrestling at all. The skills I teach are already in good wrestling. My whole point is - you need to understand deeper ideas to be really good. I not trying to say I am the best or I know better. The whole point was from Hendrik's idea of having deeper skills, which I agree with- that's all.

You seem to be the worried one. You have a lot of word play, but you don't answer my questions at all. I wouldn't call most MMA fighter vulnerable lol.

You seem to over answer and hear what suits you Guy. sorry what was you name again?

[Alan Orr]

Unfortunately hard work and sweat is over rated, you will never advance much.

I look at hard sparring as taking a test, you don't improve much, you just find out where you are in application. Taking test over and over will not help much, finding out why you are wrong and correcting that will advance you.

How you learn the correction is key to using it.

In WC like most other arts, a high level is not learned from practicing patty cake with each other, it is found from changing inside to out, a transformation that does not come from hard sparing, but needs to be found first, then used.


Cheers

It is a mix that has to be mixed well. If you spar hard with no skill then you learn nothing. Sparring should be controlled and in fact drilled until you have basic skills. Then yes you go hard to test parts the you go back to light sparring and drills to refine again. Repeating this helps a lot. But hard work and sweat is 100% needed as well. Its not one or the other.

[Hendrik]

It is a mix that has to be mixed well. If you spar hard with no skill then you learn nothing.

Sparring should be controlled and in fact drilled until you have basic skills.

Then yes you go hard to test parts the you go back to light sparring and drills to refine again.

Repeating this helps a lot. But hard work and sweat is 100% needed as well. Its not one or the other.

I totally agree with this.

[guy b.]

There is lots of great wrestling in the UK.

I am not saying my wing chun is deeper that wrestling at all. The skills I teach are already in good wrestling. My whole point is - you need to understand deeper ideas to be really good. I not trying to say I am the best or I know better. The whole point was from Hendrik's idea of having deeper skills, which I agree with- that's all.

You seem to be the worried one. You have a lot of word play, but you don't answer my questions at all. I wouldn't call most MMA fighter vulnerable lol.

You seem to over answer and hear what suits you Guy. sorry what was you name again?

Wrestling in the UK is woeful compared to other countries. This is a fact and is indisputable.

There is absolutely no need to formally understand the kind of abstract ideas Hendrik describes in order to be good. These ideas (which relate in an abstract way to actual skills) are much easier learned through simple experience. There is no need to categorise and systematise in order to understand, and indeed overdoing this can often be a barrier to understanding. Look at most Chinese MA, including wing chun, for good examples of this. Look at learn by doing arts like boxing, wrestling, bjj and judo as examples of how this approach is superior.

You are selling something to wing chun people, most of whom are not actual fighters, so I can understand your approach. It is what it is, but don't pretend it is something it is not.

[Robinhood]

Completely untrue. Hard work is the genesis of real kung fu. Waiting for the answer from someone else will get you nowhere

Good luck with that !

[guy b.]

Good luck with that !

Good luck with your eternal student approach. Just FYI, at some point you need to take control of your own learning

[Alan Orr]

Wrestling in the UK is woeful compared to other countries. This is a fact and is indisputable.

There is absolutely no need to formally understand the kind of abstract ideas Hendrik describes in order to be good. These ideas (which relate in an abstract way to actual skills) are much easier learned through simple experience. There is no need to categorise and systematise in order to understand, and indeed overdoing this can often be a barrier to understanding. Look at most Chinese MA, including wing chun, for good examples of this. Look at learn by doing arts like boxing, wrestling, bjj and judo as examples of how this approach is superior.

You are selling something to wing chun people, most of whom are not actual fighters, so I can understand your approach. It is what it is, but don't pretend it is something it is not.

Yes of course other countries have better wrestling. You point is what? We still have good guys here.

Why do you think you know better? You will not even answer my questions. Again your word play. I don't even teach a lot of wing chun guys any more. I was sick of all the BS. So I like working with MMA guys and my core Wing Chun guys that have been with me for years.

[guy b.]

Yes of course other countries have better wrestling. You point is what? We still have good guys here.

Why do you think you know better? You will not even answer my questions. Again your word play. I don't even teach a lot of wing chun guys any more. I was sick of all the BS. So I like working with MMA guys and my core Wing Chun guys that have been with me for years.

LOL at word play. I'm giving it to you straight Alan

[nasmedicine]

I said all martial arts all wing chun is made up.

You sir speak the truth. IMHO it is that very FACT that leads to and allows for innovation and evolution of any system.

[Alan Orr]

LOL at word play. I'm giving it to you straight Alan

You talk a lot yes

[Alan Orr]

You sir speak the truth. IMHO it is that very FACT that leads to and allows for innovation and evolution of any system.

Thank you. Yes the art must grow.

[guy b.]

Yes of course other countries have better wrestling. You point is what? We still have good guys here.

Point is that we don't actually have good wrestlers here. The standard is very low objectively. You claimed to have taught a good wrestler some deeper principles. That is extremely unlikely in the UK. Chances are he was actually a really bad wrestler. Just playing the odds, don't blame the player.

[Alan Orr]

Point is that we don't actually have good wrestlers here. The standard is very low objectively. You claimed to have taught a good wrestler some deeper principles. That is extremely unlikely in the UK. Chances are he was actually a really bad wrestler. Just playing the odds, don't blame the player.

chances are ... you will not answer my questions again.

He would be the first to say he's not a great wrestler. He is better that most. Anyway again you waste on word play. The point was not even about that - it was an example that he had learn something via hard work but only got better when he learnt a deep understanding of movement.

You seem to just what to be negative towards me all the time. You always jump on my posts and waste people's time with your pointless comments.

[k gledhill]

Thank you. Yes the art must grow.

Ving Tsun is a skill and mind set, not an art !

Art is subjective and led to the fiasco we have at the moment. I have met a lot of 'VT artists' They engage in chi-sao war with you and do okay, then when we spar it falls apart like a bad lie.