Combat vs. Health

[xinyidizi]

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

Because it makes you feel awesome?

But seriously in my experience a combination of qigong, standing ,internal ma, external martial arts and a little bit of combat training is necessary to balance all the yin and yang of the training so that you can feel awesome.

[Matthew]

I think the issue we're seeing is the dichotomous question you originally posed. I think it is possible to train with one of two in TCMA (or neither)

1) Health emphasis
2) Combat emphasis
"3" - neither emphasis. doing both to fullest ability

but I do not think it is TCMA if you are ignoring the other component. And I do think training could vary, although the degree to that variation will depend heavily on what you perceive as TCMA.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

Being a "very healthy" person is different than optimizing health ->All of those things can improve mental physical and complete health.

IMO, understanding martial intent would require some at least some non solo work, and is needed to perform correct movements - and thus opening the channels the moves are meant to, to optimize health.

Also- many people are obsessed with combat only thinking about UFC and fighting.. Many of these principles/energies have application in every day life benefit.

example,
you want to walk your elder aunt, parent, grandparent, etc and having listening skill can help reduce your likelihood of letting them fall, if they trip, etc.

I use such things in my garden. Soil is living to some extent- raking, tilling, culling, harvesting, etc all benefited.

Carrying somebody ( child, loved one, wife, girlfriend, etc) on your shoulder or in arms

moving deadweight (dressers, car out of gas, stones, etc)

Especially you want to learn to heal others, you'd better have high level understanding of your own body and especially others, right?

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

I don't shoot firearms, so I can't really answer that. I think this is an issue of dichotomy Still.

IME in the west we often have strong dichotomy of healthy and non-healthy. In China it is more the idea of optimizing health through anything you can really do practically (drinking room temp water, don't go to sleep with wet hair, don't reveal belly button in cold weather, don't practice in cold high winds, etc).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

We are getting closer to my final point. If you only care about "train TCMA for health", why do you want to train with partner so you can develop

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

Its called LARPing.

[David Jamieson]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

Its called LARPing.

lol...well it certainly can be by the looks of some things.

But one can train to fight without seeking out fighting.
The benefits of the training are health as well, even if it is strictly fight training.
road work + bag work + resistance training etc all metes out as healthy and healthiness of the body.

TCMA has qigongs and in my perspective, more notably Nei Gong.
These aspects are wholly for specific developments in body and mind and I enjoy these quite often as methods of exercise and mental stress relief.

Why not learn to shoot a gun? It's a skill. Why not learn to box and wrestle? These are usable skills even if you don't use them with frequency.

Don't let your lack of fighting discourage you from training. Even the best fighters in the world spend more time training than they do fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by David Jamieson

lol...well it certainly can be by the looks of some things.

But one can train to fight without seeking out fighting.
The benefits of the training are health as well, even if it is strictly fight training.
road work + bag work + resistance training etc all metes out as healthy and healthiness of the body.

TCMA has qigongs and in my perspective, more notably Nei Gong.
These aspects are wholly for specific developments in body and mind and I enjoy these quite often as methods of exercise and mental stress relief.

Why not learn to shoot a gun? It's a skill. Why not learn to box and wrestle? These are usable skills even if you don't use them with frequency.

Don't let your lack of fighting discourage you from training. Even the best fighters in the world spend more time training than they do fighting.

Oh for sure, I agree 100%.
I have no problem with people learning to fight so they don't have to.

[taai gihk yahn]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

We are getting closer to my final point. If you only care about "train TCMA for health", why do you want to train with partner so you can develop

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

I think the biggest problem here is that no one really has a working definition of "health"; personally, I go with what the World Health Organization defines health as:

"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

With that definition in mind, it follows that there is an aspect to "health" that involves interaction with other people - positive social interaction is very "healthy"(some researchers propose that many of the "health" effects of taiji are because it is done in a group); it is well documented that physical contact with others is one way to engage a parasympathetic response - therefore, doing push hands in a noncompetitive manner can engage this; all the "listening", 'yielding", etc. skills develop increased kinesthetic awareness, and require calming of the conditional (monkey) mind, and is a way to de-stress and increase body awareness, of both of self and other - this helps with overall neuromuscular / postural health and by extension other systems (digestive, cardio respiratory, endocrine, etc.); you can learn a lot more about your own balance deficits by working w a partner than you can on your own;

finally, I think the whole argument is an artifact - you practice whatever you practice for your own reasons - combat / health - these are artificial dichotomies: if you practice your art against resisting opponents, you will be more adept at using it in this way - and furthermore, you still may be more healthy than someone who practices taiji / qigong (again, w the WHO definition in mind);

this is about the human experience, which essentially defies categorization;

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn

I think the biggest problem here is that no one really has a working definition of "health"; personally, I go with what the World Health Organization defines health as:

"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

With that definition in mind, it follows that there is an aspect to "health" that involves interaction with other people - positive social interaction is very "healthy"(some researchers propose that many of the "health" effects of taiji are because it is done in a group); it is well documented that physical contact with others is one way to engage a parasympathetic response - therefore, doing push hands in a noncompetitive manner can engage this; all the "listening", 'yielding", etc. skills develop increased kinesthetic awareness, and require calming of the conditional (monkey) mind, and is a way to de-stress and increase body awareness, of both of self and other - this helps with overall neuromuscular / postural health and by extension other systems (digestive, cardio respiratory, endocrine, etc.); you can learn a lot more about your own balance deficits by working w a partner than you can on your own;

finally, I think the whole argument is an artifact - you practice whatever you practice for your own reasons - combat / health - these are artificial dichotomies: if you practice your art against resisting opponents, you will be more adept at using it in this way - and furthermore, you still may be more healthy than someone who practices taiji / qigong (again, w the WHO definition in mind);

this is about the human experience, which essentially defies categorization;

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!

[Hebrew Hammer]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!

Now that is something that could dramatically improve my health, my emotional well being, and increase blood flow to the lower extremities! wow...smoking hot...who is that?

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Hammer

Now that is something that could dramatically improve my health, my emotional well being, and increase blood flow to the lower extremities! wow...smoking hot...who is that?

thats bawangs mom

[Hebrew Hammer]

Originally Posted by Lucas

thats bawangs mom

Bawang must have been an ass baby. No way they're in the same gene pool.

[taai gihk yahn]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!

that's what I actually meant to say

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn

that's what I actually meant to say

You and I are like this man !

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Hammer

Bawang must have been an ass baby. No way they're in the same gene pool.

he was adopted. well, actually he was pillaged but ya...

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Matthew

A different example of solo training that is more obviously combat oriented is using a dummy, punching bag, or other creation. It is solo and improves health and combat.

We have different definition here. TCMA training include:

- partner training (develop),
- solo training (polish),
- equipment training (enhance),
- sparring/wrestling (test).

The solo training is used to polish your skill. The equipment training is used to enhance your skill. both have different purpose.