When are we going to stop this?

[Pork Chop]

The only ground game that I have learned from my SC teacher is "biting".

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7640/changbite.jpg

I'm borrowing this quote... hope you don't mind

[YouKnowWho]

Historically, and by that what we have in regards to documented evidence, the only ground game that TCMA had was basically a "ground and pound" and how to fight ( by striking typically) while on the ground and the other person was trying to strike you while they were standing.
There was no documented ground grappling per say, though I am sure there probably was some in the military arts since armoured soldiers fall all the time ( as was the case with ground grappling in the Japanese military arts too).
Civilian wise however, which is where the majority of TCMA come from that we have now, ground grappling was not typical.

This is why I prefer to call TCMA ground game as "追击(Zhui Ji) - following on striking" instead.

I'm borrowing this quote... hope you don't mind

Assuming we don't count these:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8822/chang5z.jpg

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9972/chang1.jpg

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4378/chang2.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9092/chang3.jpg

[Syn7]

If the spelling is wrong, it's not my fault. I just cut and paste the E-mail that my guy sent to me. I have no idea what calligiate is (it could be just a typo). Thanks for the correction. Now I know what Collegiate means.
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Dear Guro Wang,

I have moved into texas, in the North Austin area, and I would like to train. I have a background in calligiate and freestyle wrestling (22 yrs) and some coaching, and recently began learning ...
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Since Judo is popular in Taiwan, most SC guys from Taiwan had some Judo ground game influence. Old Chinese saying said, "You may not know how pork tasted (poor Chinaman), at least you have seen how pig walks". Since the ground game does not exist in SC, there is no shame to learn from "outside".

The only ground game that I have learned from my SC teacher is "biting".

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7640/changbite.jpg

LOL. thats funny. I guess he doesn't know that either. Weird. You would think somebody involved in a discipline for 22 years would not only know the spelling but also know what it meant. Anyways, No matter. No body ever accused wrestlers of being too smart.

So the second part of my question... What was the motivation? Did you see the value in it from day one? or did it take the Gracie invasion to get you on board?

Biting can be useful but a VERY bad idea in some cases. Like RNC horror stories you hear about... dislocated mugs.

I know a guy that would bite as a distraction. I got bit a few times in Wrestling competition. Always pis$ed me right off. but I behaved. not in rugby tho. Paybacks a b1tch and hooker has every opportunity to beat and batter anyone they want and get away with it. Fun game, wish I still played sometimes.

[YouKnowWho]

What was the motivation? ... I know a guy that would bite as a distraction.

IMO, the difference between "sport wrestling" and "combat wrestling" is in "sport", after you have thrown your opponent down, you win that round, the job is done. In "combat", the job is done only when your opponent is not be able to hurt you any more.

Since the

- sacrifice throw "head lock leg block" can end with a perfect "side mount".
- shoulder (bowing) throw can set up an "arm bar".
- Leg seize throw can set up a "leg bar".
- ...

My original interest was to use my throw to set up "dominate position" and be able to "finish" from there. That was my initial interest. later on, I want more than just that.

Biting can be a great "door open" move. It will open some opportunities for you.

[Syn7]

Since the

- sacrifice throw "head lock leg block" can end with a perfect "side mount".
- shoulder (bowing) throw can set up an "arm bar".
- Leg seize throw can set up a "leg bar".
- ...

My original interest was to use my throw to set up "dominate position". That was my initial interest. later on, I want more than just that.

Biting can be a great "door open" move. It will open some opportunities for you.

So it had nothing to do with the BJJ fads? It was purely a natural evolution?

Yeah, I don't think I've ever bitten anyone in a real fight. I would tho. My friend would do it to force scrambles. He was a street fighting wrestler. Big guy too. I'll never forget the day one of my 140lb friends ALMOST took him out. Until he got swept and took one giant hammerfist to the face while his head was on the concrete. After that the fight was over. But he did pretty good all considering. Bout a 80lb weight difference. It was pretty entertaining to say the least.

[Gru Bianca]

)

To me anything that involves extended connection to the body is grappling. While some Kung Fu styles do not contain Shuai Jiao, which although a style itself but can also be considered a throw, sweep, reep, or takedown, there are still elements of grappling found. For example, all of us have probably used a monkey grab when the opponents hand is in front to pull them into our area of range, or used mantis hooks to hook and pull into us or to take their space, so to speak.

I consider this a type of grappling, not so much as wrestling or Shuai Jiao, or ground work, but a type.

But your point about Kung Fu being able to hang with kickboxing, Muay Thai, or other striking arts is valid, and they should be able to. But often it's more about the training methods of the practioner and how they were taught more so than the actual techniques themselves.

Once again, I completely agree with you, but I think we are a bit chasing after semantics here. Many Kung Fu styles do contain 摔跤, heck I myself am a Tibetan White Crane practicioner (big word referred to me) and I believe it has been extensevely touched upon the wide arsenal of 摔in the Tibetan styles by Sifu Ross. But that was not my focus and I think you got any way since the very beginning the point I was trying to make.
And yes, you are right again when you say that ultimately is how you train and what you train for (regardless of your type or methodologies of training)

[ShawnThingvold]

I started grappling probably before you were born. I was doing sambo and hook wrestling long before anyone outside of Brazil had ever heard of BJJ. I was doing Sambo tourneys when it was sanctioned by the AAU and most people has never heard of a knee bar or heel hook.

Greetings friends. It's probably been 12 years since I posted on this forum. If any of you are wondering the poster "Peaceful Orchid" is also the poster known as Knifefighter who I believe was recently banned. He'll be back in some other form. Back in the early days of KFO you could rack up as many socks as you wanted and ol Knife had at least six that I know of. I'll refrain from posting most of the others. Knifefighter is what you would classify as a supertroll. Apparently he is a very good martial artist with a very bad side when it comes to online baiting and bullying. I used to post on the underground forum (I'm not sure if that place is even around anymore) and knife under his tag there used to boast about how he could get everyone like Sifu Abel and others all wound up by logging on as different socks and baiting them. A suprise to all of you who were around back in the old days (doesn't appear that many are still here) is that he was also the infamous trolls known as "rolls" and later "ralek" after rolls was banned.
I just happened back on the forums yesterday and followed a few threads and found out all the gory details.

[Pork Chop]

Greetings friends. It's probably been 12 years since I posted on this forum. If any of you are wondering the poster "Peaceful Orchid" is also the poster known as Knifefighter who I believe was recently banned. He'll be back in some other form. Back in the early days of KFO you could rack up as many socks as you wanted and ol Knife had at least six that I know of. I'll refrain from posting most of the others. Knifefighter is what you would classify as a supertroll. Apparently he is a very good martial artist with a very bad side when it comes to online baiting and bullying. I used to post on the underground forum (I'm not sure if that place is even around anymore) and knife under his tag there used to boast about how he could get everyone like Sifu Abel and others all wound up by logging on as different socks and baiting them. A suprise to all of you who were around back in the old days (doesn't appear that many are still here) is that he was also the infamous trolls known as "rolls" and later "ralek" after rolls was banned.
I just happened back on the forums yesterday and followed a few threads and found out all the gory details.

hey welcome back. Used to be Lost_Disciple here, starting around 98~99, don't know if we ever talked.

Underground forum's still around. think it's mixedmartialarts.com (mma.tv will also redirect you there). i don't post there anymore, stopped paying for the forum membership. had a stup!d nickname there too (DaRealBmoreBanga).

shaolintiger00 sparred a long lanky kid in Frederick, MD who claimed to be ralek. Unless Dale (Knifefighter) and that kid were working together, I doubt they're the same.

[ShawnThingvold]

Thanks for the reply porkchop. Not sure about the Ralek incident you spoke of since I wasn't paying attention when it happened. Of course knife had a few undertrolls working with him. I was told by someone in the know (no names) who had knowledge of the behind the scenes workings here that knife frequently used the tags "jjj" "jiujistu jedi", "Peaceful Orchid" and was implicated as the troll rolls on more than one occasion. I can't remember who it was but one of the people who always seemed to be defending him years back on the forum claimed to have met knifefighter in person and described him as "a bodybuilder of herculean build....and that would be putting it mildly". Later when it came out that knife was in fact Dale Franks and in reality he was a short, skinny, old dude it was apparent that the poster was either one of knife's socks or someone who was lying and had never met him at all.
In fact just by accident I was cruising a totally unrelated message board and there was a poster there lamenting that knifefighter had just been banned from KFO (after having been allowed to troll the forum for probably 14+ years). Knife and I had it out on a few occasions and I just came to the conclusion that he was an insignificant man posting rubbish. He seemed to really get into all the "street cred" he thought he had on this forum. When I came back a few days ago to search a few threads I came across him posting as his sock Peaceful Orchid and thought I'd throw my two cents worth. Good to know that there's a few of the old fogies hanging around. I came from the days when Taekwondoman was trolling the forums.

[hskwarrior]

I've ALWAYS wanted to be a troll when i grew up.............NOT!!!!!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

[David Jamieson]

I'm running at about 12% tolerance right now, which is about the right amount of benefit of the doubt.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

LOL. thats funny. I guess he doesn't know that either. Weird. You would think somebody involved in a discipline for 22 years would not only know the spelling but also know what it meant. Anyways, No matter. No body ever accused wrestlers of being too smart.

So the second part of my question... What was the motivation? Did you see the value in it from day one? or did it take the Gracie invasion to get you on board?

Biting can be useful but a VERY bad idea in some cases. Like RNC horror stories you hear about... dislocated mugs.

I know a guy that would bite as a distraction. I got bit a few times in Wrestling competition. Always pis$ed me right off. but I behaved. not in rugby tho. Paybacks a b1tch and hooker has every opportunity to beat and batter anyone they want and get away with it. Fun game, wish I still played sometimes.

Years back I was in a bar fight where I got bit. Basically the guy took a swing (haymaker) at me to which I jammed him, punched him, than did a headlock throw. When we hit the ground I still had the headlock and his mouth was right in my ribcage, to where he thought it would be a good idea to take a chunk from me.

He did get the bite, which hurt and caused me to get a tetinis shot, but I also rolled him over into side mount and kneed his face into oblivioun. Sometimes biting simply ****es off the guy, particulary the one who has you in a dominant position.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometimes biting simply ****es off the guy, particulary the one who has you in a dominant position.

And that truly is the crux of the matter.
If you are trying to bite someone, chances are you are in a really bad position and in if that is the case the outcome of the bite will quite typically be AGAINST you.
Unless you are Paul Vunak

[YouKnowWho]

There is one effective biting spot and that will be the finger. If you can bite one of your opponent's fingers "off". Not only the pain and lost blood, the thinking that if he doesn't go to EM to reconnect his disconnected finger ASAP, he may lost it forever. That kind of thinking will take his combat desire away. He will worry about himself (rergain his lose finger) instead of worry about you (kill you). It's good strategy in life and death situation. It may not fit in in friendly sport environment.

If you bite a chunk of fresh off your opponent's arm or leg, his fresh will grow back. If you broke his elbow or knee, his broken joint will recover. If you bite your opponet's fingers off, it will not grow back. Not sure if ear or nose will grow back though?