Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

[r.(shaolin)]

yang guiwu, no i dont know him. think he's pretty old and sickly now, doesnt teach as far as i know.

i can ask master deyang next time though.

thank you.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thank you.
r.

This salute is found in all the Shaolin Jingang Quan sets (beginning and end).

Also in the Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

LFJ;

The Shaolin Xin Yi Quan set starting on page 130 of Shaolin Encyclopedia, the more I look at it the more it looks like Shaolin Fanzi Quan set, which was originally called Shaolin Xie Xing Quan (Slanted walking boxing) - a set that was descended from Xin Yi master Ji Long Feng's visits to Shaolin.

[LFJ]

@RDH,

I see how Changhuxinyimenquan shares more in common with Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan, than the modern day Xiaohongquan, which is missing the entire first section and loads of transitional movements.

Both Changhuxinyimenquan and Laojia Hongquan start out with a double palm push to the front, then turn to left xubu. Their xiexing-suoshen-xiexing go together without a kick in the middle, and are shortly followed by a danbian, a section that is repeated in both. Then their lihetui is immediately followed by a xieziwei, which appears in the middle. Then finally they have the left-right-left tuizhang doubled near the end.

There are some other similarities with footwork throughout, but I'd love to compare it to the Mogoupai Xiaohongquan.

There are obvious stylistic differences. But if Sal's research is accurate, then it's likely the Laojia Hongquan set was used as a template for Changhuxinyimenquan which uses rooster, tiger, and other animals techniques as came from interactions with Ji Longfeng.

The only question is, why does the Shaolin Encyclopedia state not only that Changhuxinyimenquan is from the Song Dynasty, but also names it's creator as monk Huiwei?

Song Dynasty, that would outdate Li Sou and his Laojia Hongquan set. But perhaps not Mogoupai's Xiaohongquan??

[RenDaHai]

By LaoJiaHongQuan I am not certain the set you mean?

Do You mean the one that looks like XHQ but with hook hand by hip, slightly longer?


In Which case I can explain. This form is actually from a Village called LuoTuoYuan (yup, the home village of Epo's LiangYiQuan). This village is famous for its kung fu and is most famous for TaizuChangQuan (the current shaolin set) which has its origins in this village also. They claim they brought it (TZCQ) from ShanXi Province 700 years ago, and have an unbroken lineage for this time. They have the best version of TZCQ still around. (Shaolin had other versions of TZCQ which don't appear to exist anymore and this set has filled the void).

This LaoJia form is a transition form. If you remember the Nanyuan XHQ I showed you it also has a lot in common with this set. The Nanyuan XHQ is from precisely 360 years ago (they have a well documented history). I think the LaoJia form is from the interim between this set and the current practiced XHQ.

Actually Both the Nanyuan XHQ and the current Shaolin XHQ both have 4 roads. The 2nd road of Nanyuan XHQ is very close to the second road of the current XHQ despite the 360 year separation. The 3rd and 4th sets I have not seen fully.

The LaoJia form is just 1 set. It has techniques from the later sets incorperated into the first road of XHQ. So although it looks like Laojia is a more complete form it is actually a much smaller form. It is just that few people practice the full 4 roads of XHQ nowadays. All the extra techniques you mentioned can be found in the complete 216 move XHQ.


Mogou XHQ is at least 500 years seperate from Shaolin. It is also Xiyuan Pai. I think it outdates all of them and is closer to the original. Mogou XHQ is 1 form in 3 sections but it originally had many many more sections. (XHQ is a 4 road tech set). The later sections have passed into disuse but parts can be seen in MOgous other forms. Mogou XHQ also contains techs from er lu XHQ. What is interesting is that CHXYM paralells MogouXHQ so closely that it must have come from a time after the extra sections of XHQ had already been lost. So not long ago (less than 200 yrs).

The exact time of Mogou XHQ is unknown. They say there is a time 500 years ago where their sect splits form Shaolin, but it doesn't rule out them having their Kung Fu before this.


If you view Mogou-Nanyuan-Laojia-Current XHQ in that order it is a smooth and obvious evolution. I know all these sets. I learned LaoJia in LuoTuoYuan, Mogou in Mogou, Nanyuan in Ruan and Current in Shaolin. I have quite a unique view because I am one of the few who practices all these different versions (and actually bothered to learn them from the source).


Why does the encyclopedia have an early date for CHXYM? It is quite possible the Name is very old. The original may have lost all but a few stances, so they reused the name when they reintegrated Mogou HOng quan. This would get confused when looking over old records as all forms drift with time. The form has other names that slip my mind now. Just a theory, but its all I have on that name CHXYM.


Mogou also has a LaoHong set. One interesting point is that all the XHQ sets feature ShiZiDaZhangZui prominantly, except Mogou XHQ which doesn't have it. However Mogou LAOhongQuan DOES have ShiZiDaZhangZui. Must come from an old technique pool which is older than all the sets.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The problem is with the word Song Dynasty. They didn't recognize the Mongol rule and what it meant is the way later end of the Southern Song dynasty era.

The Xinyi Quan part of the Changxinyi Quan set is from Ji Longfeng and it is documented when he and his students visited Shaolin and what monks learned from them. Its some where in my book that I have had no time to work on for the past 6 months (went through divorce, more surgery coming up, working to build Qigong healing practice, etc., etc).

The time period that Li Sou was at Shaolin is the very end of the Song, which is called the Yuan dynasty most places, but Shaolin didn't drop their loyalty.

[LFJ]

Hmm..

The Southern Song Dynasty ended in 1279. The Yuan Dynasty had begun in 1271. This would perhaps allow for the creation of Changhuxinyimenquan to have taken place in the "Song" period and use Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan as a template, assuming he was in Shaolin early enough in the 13th century.

But then there's the problem that Ji Longfeng lived between the years of 1588 and 1662. So how could a Song Dynasty (even if Southern Song) boxing set have been influenced by him?

Or are you suggesting, they edited the existing CHXYMQ to incorporate Xinyiquan elements?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm..

The Southern Song Dynasty ended in 1279. The Yuan Dynasty had begun in 1271. This would perhaps allow for the creation of Changhuxinyimenquan to have taken place in the "Song" period and use Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan as a template, assuming he was in Shaolin early enough in the 13th century.

But then there's the problem that Ji Longfeng lived between the years of 1588 and 1662. So how could a Song Dynasty (even if Southern Song) boxing set have been influenced by him?

Or are you suggesting, they edited the existing CHXYMQ to incorporate Xinyiquan elements?

When Ji and later his students went to Shaolin, they brought Xinyi Ba there and Spear there. There is a Shaolin published book from that time period that still exists that talks of this, with names and so on.

It would be logical that Xiao hong Quan and Luohan Quan were the base that Ji Long Feng's art was added to.

What we know of today as Changhuxinyimenquan was most likely redone in the Qing dynasty like the rest of the group of the famous Shaolin Quan sets. It is more likely that the original raw version of this set was first developed in the Song and then changed like all the other sets were in the Qing when there was the great revision that collected together the main sets that we know now.

[LFJ]

It is true that the set has been added to and subtracted from over the centuries. So yeah, who knows what it looked like during each time period...

[LFJ]

Noticed in Shi Dejun's version of Laojia Hongquan every time he goes to dingbu or bingbu it is done with both feet flat and the front foot slightly ahead of the other and curved inward, like the jixingbu (rooster step), which seems to give more credibility to the connection between Hongquan and the "xinyi" rooster element of today's Changhuxinyimenquan.

But RDH, I recall you saying in Luotuoyuan they do it as a regular dingbu. Is that so?

It's first done at :15, then :21, :24 and so on here: Laojia Hongquan

[chanboxer]

Shi DeJian implies that his XinYiBa has nothing to do with Ji LongFeng saying “ XinYiBa was developed over a thousand years of self-sufficient farming” . Furthermore “XinYiBa refers to Buddha (xin), Chan(YI) and power (Ba)”

Is this documented elsewhere?

[RenDaHai]

Noticed in Shi Dejun's version of Laojia Hongquan every time he goes to dingbu or bingbu it is done with both feet flat and the front foot slightly ahead of the other and curved inward, like the jixingbu (rooster step), which seems to give more credibility to the connection between Hongquan and the "xinyi" rooster element of today's Changhuxinyimenquan.

But RDH, I recall you saying in Luotuoyuan they do it as a regular dingbu. Is that so?

It's first done at :15, then :21, :24 and so on here: Laojia Hongquan

Yes, In LuoTuoYuan these are all Ding Bu. Funnily enough my QiXingQuan and CHXYM also use only DingBu. It is a difficult one because often old masters who can no longer stand in ding bu will adopt the flat foot stance instead and are imitated in their absence. It is also used by part time practicioners who cannot adopt a strong dingbu. However this kind of ShuShen does sometimes appear, but not as a recognised stance, just a natural shrinking of the body. Often when striking downwards, or grasping something and pulling towards.

The rooster step is actually a fairly complex technique as opposed to just a stance.

Its true the XinYiPai do sometimes use a similar stance, although they often have the front toe raised up slightly, which means the front foot is still empty, it is just preparing to move with the heel as opposed to with the toe, it is still effectively a form of Xu bu.

[LFJ]

Shi DeJian implies that his XinYiBa has nothing to do with Ji LongFeng saying “ XinYiBa was developed over a thousand years of self-sufficient farming” . Furthermore “XinYiBa refers to Buddha (xin), Chan(YI) and power (Ba)”

Is this documented elsewhere?

Most of the monks usually say some "history" like this. But this doesn't talk about any factual history, and is just his personal interpretation of it in layman's terms.

The eight layers of consciousness, focused on mainly in the Yogācāra school, appear heavily in the Chan school as well. Such as in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which Bodhidharma is said to have taught from.

In Chinese language, Xin (mind) and Yi (intent) refer to the 8th and 7th consciousnesses, ālayavijñāna and manasvijñāna in Sanskrit, respectively. These are what one needs to be able to control or have mastery over (Ba) and ultimately transform into wisdom, because Yi/ manas/ intent is basically responsible for the "seeds" of karma (intentional action) stored in the 8th consciousness, that have the potential to give rise to further habitual production of karma and bind one to saṃsāra.

So Xinyiba is a practice of using action meditation to transform these two base consciousnesses into wisdom, again in layman's terms.

If you were not familiar with the above, you could see how much easier it would be to explain Xinyiba to the layman as Buddha, Chan, and power. Although that's not really saying anything, it gives a satisfying answer which often doesn't lead to unanswered questions and further inquiry, which is good for an interview situation. The above is too much detail which would require a deeper study of Buddhism, suitable for discussion with your actual students and disciples rather than journalists or even average martial arts enthusiasts.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Nice!

A perhaps more contemporary interpretation, one from a Taoist Martial sect with which I was involved, puts Xin (heart) akin to the Jungian Unconscious Mind (responsible for the uncontrollable aspects of our mind, instinct, emotion, dream, metabolic function etc.). Yi is the intent and the conscious mind. Achieving unification of Xin and Yi, is to understand ones self in a more profound way. To be able to communicate with and listen to the unconscious mind. So Mind, Body and Spirit are one.


Previously I never thought of interpreting 'Ba' as to control but it does make sense. Although Rett (from the forum) thought of it like this in a conversation we had last year in DengFeng.

[LFJ]

Still sounds very much like the ālaya and manas-vijñāna.