Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical WC thread.
If it's not MY WC and doesn't look like MY WC then it is wrong and isn't WC.

Typical WC thread.

[Alan Orr]

Typical WC thread.
If it's not MY WC and doesn't look like MY WC then it is wrong and isn't WC.

Typical WC thread.

Nice post

Yes its very funny. I thought forums where for sharing, but it seems some people are unsettled by what they don't understand.

[Alan Orr]

So much for your understanding of Ving Tsun. Noted for future input from you, you dont know wtf you're talking about, thanks

So if its not what you are doing then its all wrong. Shame you have no good examples that show that.

Well as you said if its not like the wing chun you know then it must be another art that does work.

[Alan Orr]

This is what I love about Alan, his team and their approach to training

Now I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anything anyone has said here but I have a respect for anyone who is actually striving to improve themselves and their students. This is what I believe Alan is doing and has done for many years.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea but at least Alan states it's Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and doesn't make any claims like he has it all and everyone else is wrong etc etc like others do here so often!

Bottom line. Each to their own in this wide Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun community

Good post.

[Alan Orr]

I'm sure one could criticize every little aspect of the clips if they were so inclined. Too much leaning forward with chops, not enough centerline. Not enough clean tan, bong, fuk. All blocks and no slips on the pad work. Not staying in the pocket in sparring.

I want to point out some positives. I like that your training has progression between the standard chi sau control structures to the open engagement free sparring including entry techniques. I like that instead of just doing no strike or very light strike chi sau you are also doing boxing focus mitts training harder strikes.

I think people doing a lot of the slap boxing type drills where you never are in the position to get hit hard are doing themselves a disservice. It's amazing people see that as 'the real VT' or whatever.

I think more WCK schools should implement some training methods like you show in your clips. Even if they do them with their own 'perfect' WCK techniques. And for all you WCK guys with the perfect techniques, here's a little clip of some mitt work for inspiration - are you tougher than an 8 yr old? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQkoih0SZM

Yes, see this is a balanced post. The points made are your point of view on what you can see, all cool. The clips are just part of training that day without trying to dress them up or make them into demos. Real training and learning skills via our wing chun.

[Buddha_Fist]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

[Sean66]

Good post, Buddha_Fist!

[Vajramusti]

Good post, Buddha_Fist!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes- a good post.

[k gledhill]

So if its not what you are doing then its all wrong. Shame you have no good examples that show that.

Well as you said if its not like the wing chun you know then it must be another art that does work.

I post clips but guys dont see what I see....I see errors in VT, not right or wrong, we are all trying to execute the system to the best of our knowledge. I simply dispute certain things and I am the closed minded one

Watch Philipp more closely....

[k gledhill]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...

[JPinAZ]

Yes its very funny. I thought forums where for sharing, but it seems some people are unsettled by what they don't understand.

You are 100% spot on! Forums are for sharing: of views and opinions. And guess what, a lot of times, they are going to differ. It's pretty obvious, that unless a post say "hey alan, great job, you're awesome, keep up the good work", then you get in a huff, say the poster is 'unsettled', 'doesn't understand', 'can't see' etc. If no one can 'see' what's going on, then why are you posting videos (on youtube) & selling videos if it doesn't show anything?
If some people don't see what you are doing as WC, so what? My advice: get over yourself, stop being so sensitive and grow some thicker skin dude.

You and your guys train hard and you fight hard. It shows in your videos and the records of your guys. But, what I SEE in almost every video of you and your guys doing both tells me you are ignoring some main/basic priciples of WC that I assumed was pretty common among WC practitioners. There, is that 'balanced' enough for your fragile sensitivities?

If you go back and reread my posts to you, you'll see a some of both sides in all of them. If you're going to post up vids, you should be cool with taking the good and the bad. it's just how it goes. Lighten up

[sanjuro_ronin]

The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

Well said bro and if I may add this:
We need to remember that the WC of a person that is 100% WC will be different than a person who has other systems in their background, but it is still WC.
A 5 foot 6 inch person that weights 140lbs and one that weights 230 and is 6-2 will NOT show the same WC, nor will a 20 yr old compared to a 60 or a woman compared to a man or a recreational WC practioner compared to a dedicated one.

[Dragonzbane76]

then why are you posting videos if it doesn't show anything?

actually I don't think he posted the video, someone else did. But really who cares.

[Frost]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me...

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next

[Sean66]

What it looks like to you is one thing, but I can guarantee you that Philipp packs a punch like a sledgehammer, and his jut sau can just about rip your arm off.

Philipp is a fighter. Always has been. The guy has had more than his share of action and never had to throw more than a couple of punches in order to finish the job, as far as I know.

I've seen people try their ****edest to hit him, and they look like the student in the clip. I've seen it first hand and experienced it first hand.

I know this is only anecdotal evidence and I'm almost positive that you won't believe me, but nonetheless I'm being honest.

In any event, to get on topic, I do respect Alan for being passionate about what he does and for trying to make his thing work for him and his students in the ring. Even if it's not my type of wing chun, more power to him. I wish him success.