Are TMAs mostly dead?

[andyhaas]

I was thinking about the current MMA popularity and wondering why there aren't more people enrolled in martial arts schools and traditional martial arts, when I came across this article.

http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/...me-mainstream/

What lept out at me was it listed the "self defense" market as being different than the martial arts market.

I thought about it and how many martial arts schools really teach self defense? Karate, TKD, 'kung fu', etc., how many really teach realistic self defense from attacks?

I am thinking that many TMAs have become so watered down now and so far from self defense as to be 'dead'. Meaning that somebody won't gain substantial self defense skill from studying the TMA.

How many people spend years learning forms and wanting to learn self defense, and then basically give up and make excuses? It's no wonder MMA is popular when it focuses on short-term fighting skills rather than lengthy forms without applications.

[hskwarrior]

If one kung fu master has ever killed a person using gung fu then the answer is yes.

[andyhaas]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later. For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start. If enough students demand applications right away, the instructors will have to do it or lose business.

Since supposedly this waiting developed to weed out students with 'good' character vs. students with 'bad' character, just don't fall for the 'good' vs. 'bad' character arguments, and explain that you want to learn self defense right away. Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

If instructors develop a MMA approach to teaching TMAs, then it will probably save TMAs rather than them just falling into performance art with showy forms without any fighting or applications.

[Lucas]

I think many TMA's have been 'watered down' but I also think its a partial isolation, as in it becomes a case by case ordeal. Ideally any tma school should be able to offer; practical self defense, sport, and fitness curriculums, as well as combinations of such. You can definitely find gyms like this throughout the world, yet at the same time and in the same cities you will also find what i refer to in my mind as physical art schools which oftentimes combine light combat elements, artistic expression and health/fitness. I think every thing has its place, but i also feel honest distinction is needed in self representation and advertisements by such organizations. To say you offer 'martial' when in reality its a dim shadow of such is not only disrespectful to your students, potential students, yourself and your teachers, but it is also very dishonorable and, imo, despicable. Honesty is a virtue. People who cannot offer an honest declaration of what they offer deserve no truly dedicated students.

[David Jamieson]

Well, there are some inherent problems with throwing people int eh soup too soon.

even mma schools that do it see student loss.

conditioning, endurance and high level skill development take time.

Now you can really apply that stuff in a short line, but you won't be that good.
After time, you get better, and with practice you get better.

It doesn't matter what is being taught. it matters how it is being taught.

yes, if you spend three years doing nothing but katas, taolu, or "sets" then you will not likely be able to apply without taken what's in those sets and drilling them, then freestyling with them whilst sparring.

So, if you just want to learn to fight, I agree, you don't need kung fu, you just need to get fighting.

Kung fu has way more than fighting. Lots of good stuff in there to benefit from without ever once punching anyone in the face as hard as you can with the best structure and angle to do it from.

[Lucas]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later. For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start. If enough students demand applications right away, the instructors will have to do it or lose business.

Since supposedly this waiting developed to weed out students with 'good' character vs. students with 'bad' character, just don't fall for the 'good' vs. 'bad' character arguments, and explain that you want to learn self defense right away. Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

If instructors develop a MMA approach to teaching TMAs, then it will probably save TMAs rather than them just falling into performance art with showy forms without any fighting or applications.

agree. I am a grown man. When I go to a new school if apps are not worked early on I leave. I don't have time to spend months or god for bid years Working my way up' to applications.

[hskwarrior]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later.

thats a pretty blanket statement. How do you know what schools teach behind closed doors? Videos, UFC, MMA is the not a good enough answer since there are many gung fu people who do train to fight but have no desire to compete, no desire to post videos of what they do.

For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start.

This is a kung fu forum. Karate has their own. and you assume that there are NO people out there teaching techniques before teaching the forms.

explain that you want to learn self defense right away.

Not everyone learns martial arts for combat reasons. If someone came to me wanting to learn combat only, they will never see our forms except in a performance.

Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

you don't sound too confident about the above statement.

then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

What teacher only teaches forms without explaining the application?

[hskwarrior]

agree. I am a grown man. When I go to a new school if apps are not worked early on I leave. I don't have time to spend months or god for bid years Working my way up' to applications.

thats understandable if you only want to learn to fight using a specific system. I've given three decades of my life to CLF. I still don't feel let down by it.

[andyhaas]

When I took aikido for a few months, and judo as well, they structure their classes with applications first rather than forms, and there were few complaints or people quitting. If karate/TKD/CMA followed this approach, they probably wouldn't lose too many students.

Personally I don't think I'd take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I'd die of boredom. The last one I took, baguazhang, I spent about 4.5 years just doing forms before the instructor taught me a lot of apps, and that was ENOUGH of that for FOREVER, I think.

In short, I don't think it would be a problem for other MAs to follow a more MMA or aikido/judo type approach. It doesn't have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing. It could be a drills/application type of thing.

[doug maverick]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

[hskwarrior]

Personally I don't think I'd take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I'd die of boredom.

so you've never learned a form in your life?

It doesn't have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing.

Question. Isn't that what you're supposed to do?

[Lucas]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

we all been hit in the head too many times and forget

[andyhaas]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

I guess whenever I start thinking, "I want to take a MA." I go out and look what's out there, get frustrated, come on here, and think, "Okay, this is what I want."

Like the baguazhang I took, if the instructor offered it with apps up front and I think we called it 'roushou' in aikido or judo, then that would be kindof ideal.

If there are 50 threads talking about the same thing, then maybe that's because there's a lot of people who want this. Not that the instructors will ever change, but hopefully if enough people ask / demand / walk away if they don't offer, then they will listen.

[andyhaas]

so you've never learned a form in your life?

What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years ... I never said I never learned any forms. I just don't want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.

[hskwarrior]

What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years ... I never said I never learned any forms. I just don't want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.

Then i don't think its your fault then. the person teaching you the forms should have taught you how to use what you are learning and drill you on it.