Interview with YKS practitioner Dr. Cheung Yung

[Vajramusti]

Another pointless pseudo- thread.

joy chaudhuri

[martyg]

no, he only learned a little bit. no one ever said he was YKS' formal student, and i think thats one thing to think about.

a) What's your source, as you weren't there. b) The two were reported friends. c) Many of the wing chun people in fatshan reportedly regularly informaly exchanged.

considering he made YKS' sticky hands (not just the luk sao platform) and 3 forms a part of his curriculum, yet he never learned these things in depth.

Where on earth did you get that idea? His forms (depending on which era of his forms you're talking about) and sticky hands are chiefly an almalgam of Chan Wah Shun related material (tracking though some of Chan's other student's versions). Likewise his luk sao platform was a platform floating around Fatshan, that last I heard was attributed to one of Chan Wah Shun's students. Most of the other mainland branches used (or continue to use) the more common mainland form of rolling. Ala:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gKGR08MgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6KjJVA_7Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7InujHDTNA

[martyg]

a) What's your source, as you weren't there. b) The two were reported friends. c) Many of the wing chun people in fatshan reportedly regularly informaly exchanged.



Where on earth did you get that idea? His forms (depending on which era of his forms you're talking about) and sticky hands are chiefly an almalgam of Chan Wah Shun related material (tracking though some of Chan's other student's versions). Likewise his luk sao platform was a platform floating around Fatshan, that last I heard was attributed to one of Chan Wah Shun's students. Most of the other mainland branches used (or continue to use) the more common mainland form of rolling. Ala:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gKGR08MgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6KjJVA_7Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7InujHDTNA

And I love how on Sergio's twitter page he calls this guy Sum Nung's "top student":

"Yuen kay san's Siu Nim Tau demonstrated by Dr Cheung Yung top student of Sum Nung "

Likewise, as someone who presumably comes through Dr Cheung and Sum Nung's linneage, why are you both still referring to it as YKS Wing Chun?

[t_niehoff]

Where on earth did you get that idea? His forms (depending on which era of his forms you're talking about) and sticky hands are chiefly an almalgam of Chan Wah Shun related material (tracking though some of Chan's other student's versions).

Yes, if you look at Lai Yip Chi (Yip's sihing under Chan and teacher of Pan Nam) and Chan Miu Yin (Chan Wah Shun's son) and even Yip's seniors, like Ng Chung So, you see the 3 forms.

Likewise his luk sao platform was a platform floating around Fatshan, that last I heard was attributed to one of Chan Wah Shun's students. Most of the other mainland branches used (or continue to use) the more common mainland form of rolling.

The luk sao platform of chi sao was created by YKS and Sum Nung, and taught to Yip Man. You don't see it in any of the older lineages unless it was recently adopted. You should talk to Rene about his time with Sum.

[t_niehoff]

And I love how on Sergio's twitter page he calls this guy Sum Nung's "top student":

"Yuen kay san's Siu Nim Tau demonstrated by Dr Cheung Yung top student of Sum Nung "

Likewise, as someone who presumably comes through Dr Cheung and Sum Nung's linneage, why are you both still referring to it as YKS Wing Chun?

Because Sum Nung called what he taught YKS WCK in honor of his sifu.

[hunt1]

Then why is the rolling part of the Chum Kui Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?

[t_niehoff]

Then why is the rolling part of the Chum Kui Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?

I don't understand your question or to whom it is directed.

[martyg]

The luk sao platform of chi sao was created by YKS and Sum Nung, and taught to Yip Man. You don't see it in any of the older lineages unless it was recently adopted. You should talk to Rene about his time with Sum.

I had at the time, and I remember discussion on the list at the time as well was that the origin of that platform was traced to one of Chan's students. I should still have it archived somewhere. Likewise we're in agreement about the mainland systems, that was my point for posting those vids.

Because Sum Nung called what he taught YKS WCK in honor of his sifu.

At first. It was then later changed by him to Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen because he felt it more adequately described the method he taught his students since he considered it a collection of his Wing Chun experience under both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San). This was around '99, several years before he died. And I still remember how some of the YKS/SN guys over here and Canada (I won't name names) were quick to try and call Rene out for supposedly not respecting Sum Nung's wishes quick enough when *he's* the one who first broke the news over here in the first place. It was ridiculous politics to see them try that, and I can only think it's because some certain names were a little upset at the relationship he had with his sigung and promoting the family.

[Pacman]

a) What's your source, as you weren't there. b) The two were reported friends. c) Many of the wing chun people in fatshan reportedly regularly informaly exchanged.

yeah exactly. informal exchange. not a formal student. someone else sarcastically said "didnt YKS teach YM everything he knows?" and i said no.

[Pacman]

Yes, if you look at Lai Yip Chi (Yip's sihing under Chan and teacher of Pan Nam) and Chan Miu Yin (Chan Wah Shun's son) and even Yip's seniors, like Ng Chung So, you see the 3 forms.

we went over this in depth in the last forum. YKS was the most famous WC practitioner in Fatsan at the time. Many tried to follow his example, but if you look at Chan Wah Shun lineage they released a book in which they show 12 different openhanded forms with 108 movements. you can see the shaolin influence. the movements are very large and big, not the small and tight.


no i do not come from dr. cheung's line. i have never met him, which is why i was surprised when he, through his own independent research, professed roughly the same ideas that i had. the difference was that he said fung siu ching was probably the one who condensed his WC into the 3 forms, where as i said it was probably YKS.

[Paul T England]

All the history is great, I love it but what is important is where we are now and how we make ourselves better.

Just because xyz created something, does not mean it can't be improved. Hmm Cars, Planes, trains, computers...do we look at the orignal creators and say my car is the best as I am Henry Ford's great grandson?

I have alway thought that YKS and Ip Man communicated a lot on wing chun and developed the Poon Sau platfoam. This does not mean they had all the answers, just a great idea that we can be thankful for. Individuals have developed chi sau since Ip Man's time I think in deifferent directions.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[t_niehoff]

I had at the time, and I remember discussion on the list at the time as well was that the origin of that platform was traced to one of Chan's students. I should still have it archived somewhere. Likewise we're in agreement about the mainland systems, that was my point for posting those vids.

Well, I think you should do some rechecking re the origin of the luk sao platform, and you might just want to drop a line to Robert and Rene -- particularly Rene since he talked to Sum (who was involved in its creation).

At first. It was then later changed by him to Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen because he felt it more adequately described the method he taught his students since he considered it a collection of his Wing Chun experience under both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San). This was around '99, several years before he died. And I still remember how some of the YKS/SN guys over here and Canada (I won't name names) were quick to try and call Rene out for supposedly not respecting Sum Nung's wishes quick enough when *he's* the one who first broke the news over here in the first place. It was ridiculous politics to see them try that, and I can only think it's because some certain names were a little upset at the relationship he had with his sigung and promoting the family.

Yes, so most of Sum's students (the ones who trained with him for the greater part of his life) were told they were being taught YKS WCK and continue to call it that.

The bottom line is that pacman is doing what so many have done -- and continue to do -- SELECTIVELY choosing to listen to those things that portray his own little branch/lineage as having "the real wing chun" and other branches/lineages as being in various ways inferior. And you can always find some brainwashed stooge like Cheung Yung who you can point to as as "authority" for that view.

For decades the YM-centric view dominated (as YM students went forth to make money off of the Bruce phenomena and used "history" as marketing) and people like YKS and Sum were marginalized. Now the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.

[LoneTiger108]

What is the reason for the seeming continual attacks on Yip Man by Yuen Kai San grand
students.?

For decades the YM-centric view dominated (as YM students went forth to make money off of the Bruce phenomena and used "history" as marketing) and people like YKS and Sum were marginalized. Now the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way.

I have to throw in my ten pence here too, as Lee Shing was also one of those humble guys who watched the entire UK market get dominated by 'other' Ip Man students, and just slipped away into his restaurant with his closest followers. His choice though, and I believe it would have been YKS and SN choice too.

If they were really that concerned, more would have been done for the Wing Chun name whilst Ip Man was still alive imho, and you have to remember that Ip Man was controlling nothing but his teaching. The committe of the Athletic Association are the true culprits of any marginalisation that occurred, so that's where any anger should be concentrated rather than at fellow brothers of WCK!

This is all old hat too so really has nothing to do with our future as a family.

As for the 'luksau' being created by Sum and YKS, I have yet to see the evidence that this is true. And I presume you mean (phonetically) looksau? Rotating Arm?

If you claim to be descended from the creators if this particular interactive platform, can you name the postures involved in it's basic structure?

[Graham H]

He is wrong about so many things.

You have something in common with him then.

GH

[t_niehoff]

As for the 'luksau' being created by Sum and YKS, I have yet to see the evidence that this is true. And I presume you mean (phonetically) looksau? Rotating Arm?

If you claim to be descended from the creators if this particular interactive platform, can you name the postures involved in it's basic structure?

Luk sao is the chi sao platform that uses tan/fook, bong/fook. The older branches of WCK, like Gu Lao and Yik Kam, etc., use the huen platform (that YKS also retains) or a touch-and-go platform (like Pan Nam). I am not saying that the luk sao didn't exist prior to YKS (it is a part of the Gu Lao 40 point curriculum) but just not as a chi sao platform.

I don't make any claim to being of the YKS lineage. But the history of the development of the luk sao as a chi sao platform is clear -- you don't see it in any lineage prior to YKS/SN, but only see if after the YKS/SN/YM collaboration, and Sum, who was meticulous in attributing the various elements in his curriculum (like that came from Cheung Bo and this from Fok Bo Chuen and that from Fung Siu Ching) was clear as to where the luk sao platform came from.