your striking methods?

[Hardwork108]

Thanks guys,

Although in regards to movement, I must say that I'm in agreement with Terence.

The only time we step back is to create space for our structure rather than be overwhelmed by oncoming energy on the bridge. With a strong emphasis on maintaining proper range. In our energy understandings, this would a form of nuetralizing the energy or what we call FA.

It is VERY different than just simply stepping back or "running away" from the force. Which can be very easily traced by an opponent and still give you trouble.

Instead we are taught to engage, and take our medicine straight away and not try to prolong the attack, but instead intercept and cut it off.

Nice discussion.

Not moving back is not just a Wing Chun concept, but a kung fu one, with a few possible exceptions, of course.

Keep this concept in mind when you see the next so called "kung fu" man fight in a contact competition......

[Frost]

Not moving back is not just a Wing Chun concept, but a kung fu one, with a few possible exceptions, of course.

Keep this concept in mind when you see the next so called "kung fu" man fight in a contact competition......

i promised myself I'd not respond to you again, but really its not just a kung fu concept its a principle of fighting full stop you never want to move backwards and not in a straight line if you can help it.

But like all principles its not ingrained in law and when under pressure you sometimes fail and retreat away from the heat of battle.

Perhaps you could link to a few fights which you consider good kung fu men in action?

[LSWCTN1]

Not moving back is not just a Wing Chun concept, but a kung fu one, with a few possible exceptions, of course.

Keep this concept in mind when you see the next so called "kung fu" man fight in a contact competition......

i disagree, your instructor stepped back a lot when i met him. not a problem or a bad point. it just 'is'.

i promised myself I'd not respond to you again, but really its not just a kung fu concept its a principle of fighting full stop you never want to move backwards and not in a straight line if you can help it.

But like all principles its not ingrained in law and when under pressure you sometimes fail and retreat away from the heat of battle.

Perhaps you could link to a few fights which you consider good kung fu men in action?

Chuck liddel never did too badly from stepping back...

its a certain skill set, granted, but its crtainly l;egitimate...

think of a boxers jab. he flies in with it then springs back.

[t_niehoff]

Chuck liddel never did too badly from stepping back...

its a certain skill set, granted, but its crtainly l;egitimate...

think of a boxers jab. he flies in with it then springs back.

Of course boxers, kickboxers, etc. using stepping in and out all the time -- that's not the point. The point is that this is not WCK's method, it is a different method.

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him. So, you need to look at everything in THAT context. Ask yourself: is what I am doing providing greater control over my opponent (or reducing my control) -- and that includes lessening the opponent's control. Does moving away, backing up, etc. provide more control? No. Generally, it reduces our ability to control our opponent and makes it easier for our opponent to control us. When we move away we can't use body leverage against our opponent.

[LoneTiger108]

Of course boxers, kickboxers, etc. using stepping in and out all the time -- that's not the point. The point is that this is not WCK's method, it is a different method.

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him. So, you need to look at everything in THAT context. Ask yourself: is what I am doing providing greater control over my opponent (or reducing my control) -- and that includes lessening the opponent's control. Does moving away, backing up, etc. provide more control? No. Generally, it reduces our ability to control our opponent and makes it easier for our opponent to control us. When we move away we can't use body leverage against our opponent.

I think everyone is forgetting one simple thing, and just entertain me here for a moment:

Yim Wing Chun was a woman. Stepping back is not the same as retreating, as retreating implies that you have a strategy. Retreating draws the opponent into your trap. This is fundamental to Wing Chun imho especially when dealing with a stronger and maybe more capable opponent.

So, for once T I disagree this week! Does moving away, backing up (retreating) provide more control? YES.

[mjw]

Of course boxers, kickboxers, etc. using stepping in and out all the time -- that's not the point. The point is that this is not WCK's method, it is a different method.

WCK's approach is to control the opponent while striking him. So, you need to look at everything in THAT context. Ask yourself: is what I am doing providing greater control over my opponent (or reducing my control) -- and that includes lessening the opponent's control. Does moving away, backing up, etc. provide more control? No. Generally, it reduces our ability to control our opponent and makes it easier for our opponent to control us. When we move away we can't use body leverage against our opponent.

Well that what if one backs off from a punch at an angle and then reenters to sieze the elbow and push it into ones core thus taking their structure.

Sometimes you give an inch to gain a mile.....

[Hardwork108]

i promised myself I'd not respond to you again, but really its not just a kung fu concept its a principle of fighting full stop you never want to move backwards and not in a straight line if you can help it.

But like all principles its not ingrained in law and when under pressure you sometimes fail and retreat away from the heat of battle.

Perhaps you could link to a few fights which you consider good kung fu men in action?

I did not say that other MAs didn't use the no stepping back concept, however, in some TCMAs that concept is emphasised to a very high degree.

Of course, in "emergencies" one does step back to recover.....

Also, when one watches sports fighting competitions, many fighters are going back, if not hopping back, all the time!!!

[Hardwork108]

i disagree, your instructor stepped back a lot when i met him. not a problem or a bad point. it just 'is'.

Well, according to you, he did badly when an attending MMA-ist took him down, which is not true!

According to you his pressure point techniques did not work, because YOU did not feel anything, yet others at the seminare felt!

So, I don't know how to take your latest.....

However, I will say that if you are not fighting for real then instead of blasting through a visiting guest, you may take a step back.....

Anyway, just to say again, not going back in kung fu, may be a new concept for some, but it is present in styles as diverse as SPM, Ngo Cho and Wing Chun, and no doubt many others....

That is one of the reasons many of these styles do not put a new student into a sparring situation earlier on, because the natural tendecy is to go back when you are attacked. So, it is always better to get this concept "sunk" in through other two men exercises, etc. before one is pressure tested.

Again, I will repeat, in emergencies one can take a step back to recover ones central line, but the mindset is to stick/take the opponent's space......

[t_niehoff]

I think everyone is forgetting one simple thing, and just entertain me here for a moment:

Yim Wing Chun was a woman. Stepping back is not the same as retreating, as retreating implies that you have a strategy. Retreating draws the opponent into your trap. This is fundamental to Wing Chun imho especially when dealing with a stronger and maybe more capable opponent.

So, for once T I disagree this week! Does moving away, backing up (retreating) provide more control? YES.

We don't agree. Opening distance NEVER provides more control. If you step back, you will be run over if your opponent is worth squat.

[t_niehoff]

Well that what if one backs off from a punch at an angle and then reenters to sieze the elbow and push it into ones core thus taking their structure.

Sometimes you give an inch to gain a mile.....

So your idea is to give up and lose control to then try and regain control? Not a good idea.

[Hardwork108]

Well that what if one backs off from a punch at an angle and then reenters to sieze the elbow and push it into ones core thus taking their structure.

IMHO, you can do that by rolling, angling and then stepping forward, thus going through the opponent.

[mjw]

From jump street not rolling hands if I can make somebody miss with footwork then enter into an advantage position why not though that was just an example of stepping back to to move forward......

[mjw]

So your idea is to give up and lose control to then try and regain control? Not a good idea.

Like in wrestling/ grappling sometimes if you don't like the way you are engaged any you can safely disengage to reengage to a more favorable position why not?

[Hardwork108]

From jump street not rolling hands if I can make somebody miss with footwork then enter into an advantage position why not though that was just an example of stepping back to to move forward......

NO problem, but you are talking about different strategies and even different arts. I am merely illustrating the that many kung fu styles use a different strategy, and if one trains enough to make this work then it can really put an opponent off his stride when, you manage to be all over him, no matter what he does.

[couch]

NO problem, but you are talking about different strategies and even different arts. I am merely illustrating the that many kung fu styles use a different strategy, and if one trains enough to make this work then it can really put an opponent off his stride when, you manage to be all over him, no matter what he does.

It's a good thing we have you here to tell us that Kung-Fu doesn't step back.