Northern Choi Lei Fut

[Dragkin]

Its always interesting to read you two argue. Pick up some interesting little bits of information about history on both sides, and whether one side is right or wrong, it does paint a colorful picture of CLF history, as well as its relation to chinese history and culture.

[hskwarrior]

) JAY most likely to have taught the same forms as King Mui in the beginning, but over time he might have decided to change the curriculum to suit the needs of his students, for example, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui might have combined into one form to fast-track the beginners.

Now, according to my chan fam sources, not all forms were created by Chan Heung. So, between 1836 and 1841, what were the forms that Chan Heung created? Ng Lun Ma? and Ng Lun Choy?

2) JAY might not have learned all the forms, since Chan Heung's time, it was deliberately separated out the teachings so everyone has to co-operate with each other if they want to know the lot, Chan Yiu-chi did the same thing with his 3 inner groups of disciples.

The reason he never learned all the forms was because he was only training UNDER chan heung for the first 5 years of CLF's creation.

3) New form might have been invented by the 2nd and 3rd generation Chan Family, for example Koon Pak invented the Copper Man Dummy and Yiu Chi invented the CLF Tai Git Kuen (Taijiquan), I bet you don't know this.

New forms were being created by chan heung's disciples and they actually shared their personal new forms with other CLF masters. and NO, i didn't know that. why? its because the COPPER MAN DUMMY and CLF TAI KIT KUEN is NOT part of the Hung Sing curriculum.

4) There was a long break in Futsan CLF, the new generation might have wanted to break away from the King Mui influence and put together their own forms with new names to stand apart. They even deliberately high-lighted the fact that there is no picture of Chan Heung in the Futsan training halls, not knowing there were never any, not in King Mui, not in Kong Men nor in Guangzhou, because Chan Heung did not want to glorify his own image, it was only until the 50s when Li Yiu Ling's student painted a picture in oil based on a past charcoal sketch that people got into the habit of showing his picture.

Than picture is NOT of Chan Heung. there IS NO picture of Chan Heung in existence.

I know you won't but i'd like to hear your version why there was a long break or break away on a deeper level. why did we want to break away?

[soulfist]

Not interested in the argument but in the comments. Extrajoseph, you seem to have a belittling tone in your references. It may not be my place but I feel compelled to retort...

1) JAY most likely to have taught the same forms as King Mui in the beginning, but over time he might have decided to change the curriculum to suit the needs of his students, for example, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui might have combined into one form to fast-track the beginners.

1) Combining Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Keun into a fast track (I assume you mean Che Keun) for beginners? Like a lesser version is what your saying it seems. Ng Lun Ma trains division of the body, which is supposed to be trained from the very foundation to work as a whole! Every other style does this, and I dont believe CLF has a figured out a key that all others has missed in that. No, Che Keun is the intelligent way to build the foundation, not dead static stances with body division, but unity to develop the methods and principles of not only CLF but of kung fu right from the outset.

2) JAY might not have learned all the forms, since Chan Heung's time, it was deliberately separated out the teachings so everyone has to co-operate with each other if they want to know the lot, Chan Yiu-chi did the same thing with his 3 inner groups of disciples.

2) Chan Heung gave a bit to everyone in order to get them to cooperate to get the full teachings? No, thats far too eccentric a concept! I mean, if that was the case as you say then those students of Chan Heung who didnt cooperate with Jeung Yim didnt get his portion of the art either! That would mean they are all incomplete without Jeung's CLF! CLF, of Chan or Jeung, doesnt exist in the forms but in the principles! Jeung Yim learned all that was Choi Lei Fut, the DNA of the concept. Later, Taam Saam did the same and with only 3 forms!

3) New form might have been invented by the 2nd and 3rd generation Chan Family, for example Koon Pak invented the Copper Man Dummy and Yiu Chi invented the CLF Tai Git Kuen (Taijiquan), I bet you don't know this.

3) New and unknown forms were created by Chan Yiu Chi and other snd and 3rd generations? I see how convenient it is for the "family manuscripts" to be kept private. Things like this can be brought up when necessary and hard to deny as its the first time for anyone to hear it. Convenient.

4) There was a long break in Futsan CLF, the new generation might have wanted to break away from the King Mui influence and put together their own forms with new names to stand apart. They even deliberately high-lighted the fact that there is no picture of Chan Heung in the Futsan training halls, not knowing there were never any, not in King Mui, not in Kong Men nor in Guangzhou, because Chan Heung did not want to glorify his own image, it was only until the 50s when Li Yiu Ling's student painted a picture in oil based on a past charcoal sketch that people got into the habit of showing his picture.
XJ

4) There was a break in Futshan but there wasnt a break in Choi Lei Fut! Whether there was a guy sitting in the hall for decades, or left for a sandwich and came back later is irrelevant. The practice was unbroken by several strings of lineages who took it back later.
I do find what you said honorable about Chan Heung not wanting to glorify his own image with his own portrait... to bad later generations didnt respect the wishes of the founder!

[bawang]

The names "lohan" and "plum flower" are not in southern styles? Do a bit of research first friend!



All these styles are southern in origin and I could list very many more examples. These names are not exclusive to northern styles. Few know the functional differences between northern and southern styles beyond trivial things like this!

meiha and lohan were huge boxing sects in the north. im talking mainland kung fu here not chinatown kung fu. all u showed is guangdong kung fu likes to name its forms after famous styles. im saying i dont like that its dishonest.

[hskwarrior]

Its always interesting to read you two argue. Pick up some interesting little bits of information about history on both sides, and whether one side is right or wrong, it does paint a colorful picture of CLF history, as well as its relation to chinese history and culture.

Choy Lee Fut's history as a whole which includes all three major branches is extremely awesome. Don't know much or heard much about chan heung's activities, but the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has some incredible pieces of history to talk about.

[extrajoseph]

Than picture is NOT of Chan Heung. there IS NO picture of Chan Heung in existence.

Hi Frank,

How do you know?

Besides, there is no picture of Jesus Christ either, how they are everywhere? What are you trying to tell me?

XJ

[extrajoseph]

I know you won't but i'd like to hear your version why there was a long break or break away on a deeper level. why did we want to break away?

Hi Frank,

Try the 3 P's: Profit, Power and Politics.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

Try the 3 P's: Profit, Power and Politics.

XJ

Jeung Hung Sing trained under Chan Heung from the age of 12 to 17 years old (1836-1841). After completing his training with Ching Cho in 1849 he went to Fut San and opened his school. for the next two years he opened MANY MANY MANY hung sing kwoon's in Fut San training the members for the Tai Ping Rebellion in 1851. From 1851 to someone around 1864-1867 Jeung Hung Sing returned to Chan Heung, shared what he learned from CHING CHO then went back to Fut San in 1867.

Jeung Hung Sing was busy training his students, developing his fighting method, and constantly on the run from Law Enforcement. After returning to Fut San, he didn't continue his learning from Chan Heung. He was busy running his many schools and fighting.

Your 3 P's sound more like "Poop, Poopie, and PHALSE!!!!! hahahah

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

How do you know?

Besides, there is no picture of Jesus Christ either, how they are everywhere? What are you trying to tell me?

XJ

It doesn't matter how i know. but, even the Chan Yong Fa lineage knows that the image shown to be chan heung is NOT really him but a guestimation of the possibility of when he might look like based on Chan Koon Pak.

sorry to bust your bubble BUB!!!! and actually, the Shroud of Torin gives an awesome look at what Jesus looked like.

[soulfist]

meiha and lohan were huge boxing sects in the north. im talking mainland kung fu here not chinatown kung fu. all u showed is guangdong kung fu likes to name its forms after famous styles. im saying i dont like that its dishonest.

Really? Maybe you know something I dont know then. What were these 2 sects, and when was the founding roughly? Is there a mention as to the meaning or significance of those names?

Off the top of my head...

Lohan as a style there are 3 main ones from the north:
1) Mai Jong Lohan Mun - of Fok Yuen Gap (founder of Ching Wu)
2) Ying Yi Lohan Mun - of Tong
3) Lohan Mun - of Suen Yuk Tong (5 Provinces Broadsword King)

Mui Fa as a style I know of:
1) Mui Fa Mantis, and Mui Fa Taiji Mantis
2) Northern Shaolin Mui Fa Keun
3) Mui Fa Jeung (plum flower palm)


I know the history and meaning of those styles quite closely. So, what do you have to support that it is dishonest for Choi Lei Fut to use the names of Mui Fa and Lohan?

[extrajoseph]

sorry to bust your bubble BUB!!!! and actually, the Shroud of Torin gives an awesome look at what Jesus looked like.

14th-century relic

The Shroud of Turin has been carbon dated not to the time of Christ but instead to the 14th century—perhaps not coincidentally about the time when the first record of the burial cloth appears. If the Turin Shroud really is the most important holy relic in history, it seems curious that its existence was unknown for 1,300 years.

Instead of accepting the fact that the shroud's cloth is far too new to have existed around the time of Jesus, advocates have challenged the carbon dating science, offering various reasons why the test was flawed.

They claim, for example, that contamination and/or the effects of a fire must have led to an incorrect date. Yet these effects would have only increased the margin of error by a few hundred years—not a millennium and a half. These claims would carry more weight if other (supposedly non-contaminated) parts of the shroud had been dated back 2,000 years, but no part of it is older than about 600 years.

The numbers just don't add up.

Last year an Italian scientist and his team replicated the Shroud of Turin with materials and tools available at the time of the shroud's origin. Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia, used linen identical to that on the shroud, made an impression over a volunteer's face and body, and artificially aged the cloth with heat. Garlaschelli's reproduction did not conclusively prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, but it did disprove the claim that the image is scientifically unexplainable and could not have been made by human hands.

Fakes and contradictions

There's another very good reason to suspect that the Shroud of Turin is a fake: the forger admitted it. As shroud researcher Joe Nickell noted in his book "Relics of the Christ," a document by "Bishop Pierre d'Arcis claimed that the shroud had been 'cunningly painted,' a fact 'attested by the artist who painted it.'" Not only did Bishop d'Arcis attest to knowing that the shroud was a fake in 1390, but even Pope Clement acknowledged the forgery.

[hskwarrior]

oh so you haven't watched the most recent documentary then huh? it will make you cry if you believe in jesus. uh, yeah, i suggest you watch the new one.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

It figures, if you based your so-called historical research on faith, then nothing can argue against it. The bottom line is you don't know, but you believed in what the Futsan elders told you, so what can I say? It sure makes me want to cry, you are treating CLF like a religion rather than a martial art.

XJ

[soulfist]

So... no one knows the northern connection of Choi Lei Fut huh.

[hskwarrior]

Southern hand northern legs? is that what you're referring to?