A nice film...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro Ronin,

Do you have some suggestions on how to teach and train people to a high proficiency in less time? I am not saying I disagree with you, more that I am curious on your viewpoint.

Well, you can do it like all the other systems that do it, do it.
How long does it take to be proficient in boxing? in MT? to name two popular ones.
If KF took so long to get good at in the "old days" when KF was supposedly used on a regular basis and for REAL fighting, it would have died out a long time ago.

Look at boxing for a second, you learn to make a fist, learn to hit with it, to defend, to attack, basic combs, all in the same way you will use them in a fight, drill them to develop speed and force and test your skill in sparring.
Done.

[MightyB]

Well, you can do it like all the other systems that do it, do it.
How long does it take to be proficient in boxing? in MT? to name two popular ones.
If KF took so long to get good at in the "old days" when KF was supposedly used on a regular basis and for REAL fighting, it would have died out a long time ago.

Look at boxing for a second, you learn to make a fist, learn to hit with it, to defend, to attack, basic combs, all in the same way you will use them in a fight, drill them to develop speed and force and test your skill in sparring.
Done.

Great film... anyway- I see the potential in the two person drills that the SPM guys and that Eric guy was doing with his students in the end. I think the biggest thing that TCMA is missing is the emphasis on the spontaneous two-person drills. Not pre-rehearsed routines... but- then, after a certain degree of mastery of the drills, increase the intensity and range and variety of movement that's allowed in the "playing hands". It'd get to a point where the fighting drills are basically principle based free-form fighting. I've never seen chi sau or pushing hands drills progress totally to free-form fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

two man drills are pointless outside of beginner context.
What are you doing in them? learning to fight another guy from your own system?
What's the point in that??

[MightyB]

two man drills are pointless outside of beginner context.
What are you doing in them? learning to fight another guy from your own system?
What's the point in that??

Kind've sort've... if it's done the way it's always been done. But when you look at it from the perspective of - as a beginner, you do it in the most basic and fundamental pure form as it's always been done... then as you progress- you ad spontaneous movements from any style so that you're forced to deal with a variety of attacks outside of your system... eventually it should become a safe way to free fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kind've sort've... if it's done the way it's always been done. But when you look at it from the perspective of - as a beginner, you do it in the most basic and fundamental pure form as it's always been done... then as you progress- you ad spontaneous movements from any style so that you're forced to deal with a variety of attacks outside of your system... eventually it should become a safe way to free fight.

Well, free fight is NOT suppose to be "safe"

Thing is, we really never see that, do we?
When was the last time, in a SPM class or a WC class, someone tried to apply a Jab-cross-hook combo or a Jab-single leg take down combo or a low kick-clinch0 knees combo?

[MightyB]

Well, free fight is NOT suppose to be "safe"

I guess I'll be one of those guys- But we simulate free fighting fairly safely all the time in my BJJ class... It's true. Nothing too hard core cause it's fer learn'n... but kick punch, grapple... whatever you can do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess I'll be one of those guys- But we simulate free fighting fairly safely all the time in my BJJ class... It's true. Nothing too hard core cause it's fer learn'n... but kick punch, grapple... whatever you can do.

Turkish oil check?

[MightyB]

man I hate being one of those guys... I still think it can't really be called martial arts if it doesn't require at least two people to practice. And I'm not talking Jedi/Sith master - student, I'm saying someone doing the hitt'n and someone doing the block'n.

[sanjuro_ronin]

man I hate being one of those guys... I still think it can't really be called martial arts if it doesn't require at least two people to practice. And I'm not talking Jedi/Sith master - student, I'm saying someone doing the hitt'n and someone doing the block'n.

Well, you got fight to learn to fight, but don't forget, most of the time a fighter or a MA trains more on their own than with a partner -
Conditoning
Strentgth building
bag work, etc.

[MightyB]

Well, you got fight to learn to fight, but don't forget, most of the time a fighter or a MA trains more on their own than with a partner -
Conditoning
Strentgth building
bag work, etc.

But that t'ain't martial arts 'cuz I can do bag work, hit the weights, and play with my big balls (stability balls) all day and not be a martial artist.

[MightyB]

but then again... that's why I say most people even in TMA aren't really studying martial arts.

[marcos]

Martial Artists are made up of people that fight and people that don't. Some play more for the MARTIAL side of things, and others play more for the ART side of things... as long as those people don't pretend to be learning for the opposite of what they are training for, all should be fine in the world.

[Frost]

It amazes me that people can’t see the woods for the trees sometimes.

Teachers showing a total unwillingness to change the old ways, making a student wait 10 years before teaching him the real stuff...saying that kung fu is unlike other martial arts and takes years to become good at...then you have students not wanting to spar but thinking that they will be able to fight if they develop their chi and so on and son on ...and then the same people saying the above wonder why the arts are dying

a 50 minute video mostly forms, weapons chi stuff some 2 man stuff but no sparring or real free play...lots of talk about how hard kung fu is to learn etc....and people wonder why kung fu is dying out
As already pointed out do people really think that back in the day when these arts were actually needed to help people survive that those learning them had to spend years before they could use them, or that all they did were forms and exercises....if this was true then how did so many styles survive did these people not come out of hiding until a decade had past and they could actually fight, or did they train in a way that allowed them to become good fairly quickly?

[bawang]

Teachers showing a total unwillingness to change the old ways, making a student wait 10 years before teaching him the real stuff...

this is not old ways this is a recent phenomenon in the late 1800s. manchus unban martial arts and people found new way to make good steady money.
also railroads took the only steady job away from martial artists.

in folk stories new stories in 1800s people train for 10 years. in older stories it was half a year to 1 year.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But that t'ain't martial arts 'cuz I can do bag work, hit the weights, and play with my big balls (stability balls) all day and not be a martial artist.

No, but you can't be a MA without them either.