Bujutsu and Budo

[Finny]

I guess I wasn't as clear as would have liked. What I meant (overall) was Hatsumi is skilled and his teachers were identified in their day as ninja. Who cares what he calls himself. What is a ninja today? If you teach martial arts and combine stealth, what is wrong with taking on the mantle? I mean some people act like monks, others act like samurai, why not a ninja?

The difference is - the folks that claim to teach 'samurai' arts (usually) have a legitimate lineage for their art. Monks have an ancient history. Descendents of Buke have a rich and extensive history. Koryu have a rich and extensive history

Are you saying Hatsumi was not given teaching credential from Nawa or that Nawa was not a ninja?

Both. Not saying anything about Obata, but as I said - everyone associated with Nawa, including the man himself, repeatedly stated that he was never taught or practised ninjutsu.

You will never see me argue that the Bujinkan history is 100% or that all Bujinkan schools are amazing. I do find it funny that people go after the Bujinkan as the epitomy of frauds when BS is liberally sprinkled throughout MA, and the Bujinkan is not the worst culprit.

I'm not saying that the Bujinkan is the epitomy of fraud - as I and others said earlier, Takamatsu was a legit expert in both Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. The acts of others are no excuse.

Hatsumi's lack of documentation....Hatsumi and Takamatsu at one point were not challenged on their word for better or worse. When asked documents were shown. These documents were housed in a museum. The museum caught fire and the documents were destroyed. Hatsumi and Takamatsu recreated the documents and scrolls from memory. Everybody comes out of the woodwork that has as an axe to grind and says,"No documents= not a real art." The fire is well recorded. The location of the documents was well recorded. The status of the oringinal is admitted.

Not exactly.

Hatsumi wasn't around when the fire occured, and no-one had challenged Takamatsu to produce documentation because at the time, he was a practitioner of the two arts he legitimately dedicated his life to - HTYR and KTH.

Fire destroyed the Kuki family residence - destroying the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho densho. Takamatsu reproduced them for the Kuki family.

Again - that is Kukishin Ryu, NOT anything to do with ninjutsu.

No-one disputes the fact that Takamatsu was an expert in Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Consider too, Hatsumi might believe every word he says even if it were to be proven to be 100% false. Perhaps the deception goes back a generation earlier? How can we prove it did not?

If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

Peace

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I never said anything about "invalidating all that could be learned" from Hatsumi.

I simply said - Hatsumi's ninjutsu arts have no historical verification and were likely a creation of Takamatsu. It sticks in my craw that with his outstanding marketing skills, and the popularity of his art, he is regarded by the mainstream as "the only legit ninjutsu guy" (as well as the offshoots of the Bujinkan)

His version of ninjutsu history is often the version you see in low-class popular martial arts books, and nearly everyone who gets interested in ninjutsu buys one of his books and takes him for a legit ninja.

I just like to present the alternative viewpoint - That his teacher was an expert teacher in two koryu - Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu - and may have seen or learned some others (Asayama Ichiden Ryu for example) that he passed on to Mr. Hatsumi.

But the 'ninjutsu' ryuha were most likely invented by Takamatsu.