Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms

[lkfmdc]

Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters

Bruce Lee wanted to be a movie star, that he achieved in spades... he wanted to change the perception of asians in the west, again, major victory....

As for his accomplishments in the martial arts, much of what is attributed to his "genius" were the thoughts of other men, much of what is attributed to his "unique approach" were the approaches of others. To speak of his "fights" is to speak of second and third hand tales, many of which even on the face of them raise questions. A quick examination of available footage and his sparring is weak, the heavy bag clip is just sad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

People want to say he was unique for his age; yet in Thailand men with much more skill were actively fighting, the Kyokushinkai was also open to all challenges, Vale Tudo matches were taking place in Brazil and there was the South East Asian Cup. It is WELL KNOWN that Bruce Lee attended one of these when it was in Hong Kong. He "hid" under glasses and a hat and sat in the far back....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I liked Bruce Lee.
He pointed out common sense stuff that was being ignored ( by some) in his time and was instrumental in spreading kung fu to the world.
His MA legacy is people that value practicality over tradition WHEN the two are at odds.
Nothing wrong with that.

In short, I take Bruce Lee for what He was and disregard what he was not.

[Jimbo]

I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the "Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter" image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as "The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time". I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.

A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.

I liked BL and still do. There's the image his worshippers carry; there's the image his biggest critics carry; and then there's simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.

[lkfmdc]

It's hard to know what Bruce Lee really "thought" or even what he claimed. He died young, and most of his public efforts were towards his ACTING CAREER...

Pretty much all of the Bruce Lee body of work comes through the filter of his estate and his students, both of which had a very vested interest in him....

Whether it was just love for a dear friend they lost, or the fact a guy who was a phys ed and driving teacher became one of the richest men in the world, there is an interest at work

It is a touchy subject even in the so called "JKD world"... where half of them moved on the more progressive training while the other half has fallen into their own "classical mess"

But a few facts are apperent; (1) He wasn't the super fighter people want you to believe he was. Nor were his skills all that astounding. There were much better, real fighters in his days. His bag clip is sad. (2) Tons of people believe the ideas he stole were indeed his. And the estate backed that falsehood until they were forced to acknowledge it after losing legally (3) The claim that Bruce Lee or his ideas produced anything is hotly debatable. Bruce himself never produced many students. HIs ideas produced a generation (or two) of "Jeet Kune Do people" who have now split into widely divergent camps.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Greetings,

Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.

mickey

Actually, I believe he very much wanted stardom and celebrity. He did say, he was going to be bigger than McQueen. That caused a falling out with those 2. Yet, McQueen still pallbeared for his friend/instructor.

[Jimbo]

It's not really 'out of the blue' that BL wanted to be an actor. His father was an actor in Cantonese opera and in movies. So BL was exposed to the performing arts long before he began training martial arts. Lots of actors' kids want to become actors themselves.

I do believe BL wanted to be a big star. He had written out a list of goals, one of which said he would be a superstar (or millionaire?) by 1980.

[MysticNinjaJay]

I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the "Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter" image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as "The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time". I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.

A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.

I liked BL and still do. There's the image his worshippers carry; there's the image his biggest critics carry; and then there's simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.

I think this claim comes from the following passage from a book:



It's a second hand source so we don't know if Bruce Lee ever said this but I always interpreted this as Bruce Lee saying he would lose to Muhammad Ali in a Boxing match (hence "little Chinese hand").

This quote has been attributed to Bruce Lee:

“To tell the truth, I could beat anybody in the world.”

Now I very much doubt Bruce Lee could beat anyone in his time or in the present but I believe, as he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter. This thread however is about Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms. Where is the evidence for Elms? That's what I want to know.

[lkfmdc]

he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter

It's the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a "martial artist" has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter

[MysticNinjaJay]

It's the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a "martial artist" has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter

Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.

[David Jamieson]

Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.

Bruce Lee trained some martial arts. But was more interested in movies. With the popularity of action martial arts films, that is where Bruce Lee made himself.

Nobody will give you credit for things you didn't do. Whether or not he was on track is irrelevant. The truth is that BL was never a carded fighter and had no interest in pursuing a fight career. He was clearly into making movies and becoming a super star and martial arts was his vehicle towards that. That was his thing.

[iunojupiter]

Much like all improvements and innovations, Lee stood on the shoulders of giants, and applied their knowledge to new materials and came out with fantastic results.

Were his ideas original? No, and Yes. No, as they were not "his" but yes because he applied them to new situations and the application to those situations was "his". So argue all you want that he took from here and took from there and bla bla bla.

lkfmdc, you take your knowledge from your training in TCMA and apply it to other venues, with successful results. Are your appropriations any different than Lee's? On a basic level, no, they are not. The only difference between you and him is you don't have a cult following praising your genius. Get over it. His ideas were sound and innovative for the time and place he implemented them. That's his "genius".
So he wasn't a fighter. He trained champion fighters using his methods derived from his innovations. Kind of like you. You're not a champion fighter, but your students are.

Was Lee a martial arts god? Absolutely not. Was he instrumental in the spread and love of asian martial arts in the western world, absolutely yes.

I like Bruce Lee. Do I care that he wanted to be a movie star more than anything else and he wasn't a fighter himself? No, because on his path to achieving his goals, his contributions to the martial arts community were excellent. I'm also not surprised that so many fantastic stories surround the man, and know that generations from now, he will have a mythical quality applied to his legacy, like many before him. It's human nature, and it's bound to happen.