A data point from 1848 era

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendrik,

I agree with most of what you are relaying, however, I'd like to address a couple issues.

1. Being a long fist stylist I feel that the holding of structure as you describe it is not totally accurate, it depends on the method of long fist. Some methods employ continuous movement that contracts and expands weaving in and out of the long bridge and short bridge. This is done as a counter measure for collision, it allows one to gauge the gap and control the inside line from varying distances. In short the movement is not linear or static, the geometric shape changes slightly to compensate for distance.

2. I agree that Biu Jee is not effective offensively using the long fist "engine" but defensively it's a different story. The large circling movements are used in much the same manner as I described above, albeit not generally in an offensive manner. Defensively as a means of wrapping up or escaping it's performed in much the same manner as long fist.

I just wanted to clarify a couple of points that weren't readily addressed. All in all I generally agree with your assesment on the mechanics of the bridging.

1. Sure,
long fist art like clf is dynamic. Western boxing is Also dynamic. In contrast to some other southern fist style.


2. I would say, the close body or short strike art support engine is both defensive and offensive in the same time.

One can't seperate the ying and yang , they exist in the same instant, one cannot seperate the action and reaction force , the couple exist in the same time,

Or it is better to called is able to recieve and issue in the same time instead of offensive and defensive.

When entering into force flow art or close body art, it is not longer the long fist type of offensive and defensive paradigm.

One can't think of short strike art with long fist art logic.

Saying defensive means one has already lost one could in timing. And Wck a short strike art is a proactive art which is not doing defensive.

Either one can deliver the inch power in biu Jee set or one is using a long fist engine which is not effective . IMHO



In addition, IMHO
One really can't practice the SNT the way of holding structure , locking yjkym, holding breathing to get a result to support the fluid short strike art which never stop moving at close body range and playing with force flow or inch power continuously. It seems that Some how, some one makes an evolution from 1848 data point long time ago

The biomechanics just doesn't add up for the short strike art which heavily emphasis in enter the body or get close and dynamic close body force flow handling " inch Jin m come accept go return..." A reality we the modern wcners has to face.

[Hendrik]

I get what your saying, hard to perform Lin Sil Dai Da from long bridge and be efficient. I also agree with your comments on SNT as far as the holding of structure and expecting to generate fluidity and force, not effective at all. That really describes to me a "dead" method of chi gung as opposed to a "live" method of Gung Fat.

Good post Hendrik.

Agree.

The bottom line is :

Type of art, technics, power generation, and biomechanics have to add up. Otherwise it will be a disaster.
May be I say this will get many people to be upset. But realisticaly, this is what is needed to be face in the modern world because it got to be scientific otherwise it become a religion. Now we do have enough ancient evidence to say the ancient wcners are in fact scientific .

So, when Sergio , in his video, brought up on put things back in to the set. It is an honest sincere words. If we want the set to function effectively , we need to really look into the topic. To the minimum, IMHO, one needs the bardic seven bows handling .

One really can't do Wck with hung gar or clf engine. But lots of us doesn't realize there are long fist art and short strike art exist in 1848. Instead keep thinking everything is long fist art.


IMHO, it is similar to renessance era, the church wants it to be one way and their way, but the people starts noticing something is not add up.

[Hendrik]

Another thing can be brought up is gung fat cannot be just san sik.
Wck set is not just San sik add together.

Look at the San sik, is it a long fist art or a short strike art? How is the engine development to support it....etc. we can see, the long fist and short strike issue rarely being bought up in past 80 years. Thus, the evolution has been diverted in many directions.

Just take a look at Bruce lee closing the gap concept and Wck entering the body or get close in. These are telling one they are different art, heading in a different direction. Evidentally, Bruce lee inch punch is not the same with ancient Wck inch power which supporting short strike art.



The research of Wck history is important because it is from the proper history research that we know how the ancient art big picture is. And as how one to evolve his Wck for the future. It is everyone's free choice. But atleast we know Wck is a short strike art to begin with, And one can proceed from that.

[KPM]

Another thing can be brought up is gung fat cannot be just san sik.
Wck set is not just San sik add together.

Please explain to me how taking...let's say the Yip man SNT form...and practicing it as individual sections separately vs. practicing it all as one piece is any different. The form actually separates the sections and comes to a slight pause each time you bring your fists back to the chest at the same time. Why would practicing each of these sections separately develop "gung fat" less than practicing them added together?

Look at the San sik, is it a long fist art or a short strike art? How is the engine development to support it....etc. we can see, the long fist and short strike issue rarely being bought up in past 80 years. Thus, the evolution has been diverted in many directions.

I don't understand what you are saying here. What San Sik are "long fist art"?

Just take a look at Bruce lee closing the gap concept and Wck entering the body or get close in. These are telling one they are different art, heading in a different direction. Evidentally, Bruce lee inch punch is not the same with ancient Wck inch power which supporting short strike art.

How does that have anything to do with training in a San Sik format?

The research of Wck history is important because it is from the proper history research that we know how the ancient art big picture is. And as how one to evolve his Wck for the future. It is everyone's free choice. But atleast we know Wck is a short strike art to begin with, And one can proceed from that.

Well, in researching WCK history you will discover that Leung Jan taught Wing Chun in a San Sik format when he retired to Ku Lo village. Are you saying that he didn't develop "gung fat" and didn't know the "short strike art" because he trained in a San Sik format rather than as one long continuous form? This is an honest question because I don't understand what you are trying to say in your last post.

[KPM]

Thanks Dave. I likely did misunderstand Hendrik's reference to Long and Short Bridge arts. But this part needs clarification because Hendrik has already stated on this forum that you cannot train "gong" in San Sik format and that any art without the SLT form is incomplete. So to me he is not implying a binding element, because he has outright stated in the past that Wing Chun trained in San Sik format cannot develop the proper "gong." So he needs to clarify.


He was implying that there is a binding element to the San Sik that creates Gung Fat and that without the binding element there is no Gung Fat.

[Hendrik]

Hi guys,

The following might help.


So,

According to YKSLT part 1 practice,


There is a gung fat for short strike art based on emei technology embedded in SNT.

It is A six steps sequencing process cover six core elements. It is a six steps development process. Process is gong fat.


This gong fat I explicitly systematically describe it here and named it as the formulae 2014 in my YouTube.



Formulae 2014

Step:
1. Collect the intention union with awareness on equal shoulder stance. (Loose expand )
2. Meeting in lower abdomen breathing is smooth ( deep breathing)
3. Snake slide worm move joins progressively link ( joins handling)
4. Couple with ground needs the feet bow ( ground coupling)
5. Seven bows align into a path way for Jin or force flow ( Force flow path construction )
6. Action and reaction force handling develop Jin or force flow ( force flow handling)





Formulae 2014 embedded within YKSLT part 1, which is actually a common denominator in older SNT set such as YKS SNT. Yip man SNT has evolved away the section 2. But still preserve it in the Yip Man biu Jee set.

The following is where the formulae 2014 exactly locate within the snt set.


section 1, yjkym section implement step 1 and 2.
Develop loose expand , deep breathing, and grow Qi

Section 2, snake reel section implement step 3.
Develop joins handling and adaptive

Section 3, Sam pai fut section imolement step 4, 5, 6
Develop ground coupling, force flow path, and force flow handling.





So, if one doesn't go through the six steps in a step by step progressive way after every miles stone develop, one will not develop the gong. If one mis a step , one will never get the target result . If one have totally no idea on these steps and process, one cannot develop the Kung.


In today's language, This is a software , the hard ware or SNT cheography is there but needs software to training the hard ware.

San sik, is not doing the above. But a scenerio of application. Everything has their place but they are different.



If one doesn't practice or implement the above gong fat or process or formulae 2014 intentionally within SNT more then one hundred hours , one really doesn't know what it is. Usually needs a thousand hour to have a good handling.
So, no, just practice SNT doesn't get one there.



Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle in the ancient, San sik can teach to every students. Without the gung fat development San sik really doesn't function well.

For example , in the YouTube above, I enter my body to stick at the woodern dummy range which is the sweet spot of Wck 1848 IMHO , from fist range , to elbow , to shoulder range. And play there .

In today's language, That is just a biu Jee set equivalent type of enter the body San sik. But without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.


Thus, there are the body gong and application or sau faat. The gong faat and sau faat. One needs both to get a compete art. Usually, in ancient only sau faat is teaches, but San gong hidden. Thus, that is a major cause of the losing of the art because when the short strike art San gong is replace by the long fist San gong. That is the beginning of in effective and chaos evolution. IMHO.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

I am not saying who is original or pure or olderst, but based on technology things has to add up. And we do see issue in passing the art in the history record via the tendency,

These is just what happen in the history as I have seen. IMHO.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265495]Hi guys,

The following might help.


So,

According to YKSLT part 1 practice,


There is a gung fat for short strike art based on emei technology embedded in SNT.

It is A six steps sequencing process cover six core elements. It is a six steps development process. Process is gong fat.


This gong fat I explicitly systematically describe it here and named it as the formulae 2014 in my YouTube.



Formulae 2014

Step:
1. Collect the intention union with awareness on equal shoulder stance. (Loose expand )
2. Meeting in lower abdomen breathing is smooth ( deep breathing)
3. Snake slide worm move joins progressively link ( joins handling)
4. Couple with ground needs the feet bow ( ground coupling)
5. Seven bows align into a path way for Jin or force flow ( Force flow path construction )
6. Action and reaction force handling develop Jin or force flow ( force flow handling)




Yip man SNT has evolved away the section 2. But still preserve it in the Yip Man biu Jee set.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? Depends

[kung fu fighter]

Without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

Excellent post, this is exactly my opinion as I have stated to Hendrik though email

[BPWT..]

So, if one doesn't go through the six steps in a step by step progressive way after every miles stone develop, one will not develop the gong. If one mis a step , one will never get the target result . If one have totally no idea on these steps and process, one cannot develop the Kung.


In today's language, This is a software , the hard ware or SNT cheography is there but needs software to training the hard ware.

San sik, is not doing the above. But a scenerio of application. Everything has their place but they are different.

If one doesn't practice or implement the above gong fat or process or formulae 2014 intentionally within SNT more then one hundred hours , one really doesn't know what it is. Usually needs a thousand hour to have a good handling.
So, no, just practice SNT doesn't get one there.

Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle in the ancient, San sik can teach to every students. Without the gung fat development San sik really doesn't function well.

For example, in the YouTube above, I enter my body to stick at the woodern dummy range which is the sweet spot of Wck 1848 IMHO , from fist range , to elbow , to shoulder range. And play there .

In today's language, That is just a biu Jee set equivalent type of enter the body San sik. But without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.

Thus, there are the body gong and application or sau faat. The gong faat and sau faat. One needs both to get a compete art. Usually, in ancient only sau faat is teaches, but San gong hidden. Thus, that is a major cause of the losing of the art because when the short strike art San gong is replace by the long fist San gong. That is the beginning of in effective and chaos evolution. IMHO.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

I am not saying who is original or pure or olderst, but based on technology things has to add up. And we do see issue in passing the art in the history record via the tendency. These is just what happen in the history as I have seen. IMHO.

I have to admit, this does make sense. Good post Hendrik.

Ps. Your long vacation from the forum was actually just a weekend break

[kung fu fighter]

wing chun will never work by using long fist art power generation, no matter how hard or how many years you practice. You can't beat a long fist art such as western boxing or CLF at their own game since that's what their art is designed to do, instead I believe wing chun was designed to specialized in close range fighting where we will take away their advantage and implement ours by not giving them the necessary space to function or to generate power.
Remember every art has it's strengths and weakness, wing chun's strength are in close, while it's weaknesses are in long range or on the ground in a grappling scenerio.

[Hendrik]

1) what does the word/term 'gong' mean? (I think 'fat' means method?). And, he also spells gong as gung... are they the same thing? ------


Gong or gung or Kung means "skill " " capability"






2) can someone give an example using "today's terminology" of what "gong fat" is/does to a wing chun response (say, something like Tan sau and punch or pak sau and punch, etc)? ------


For example

Say Punching ,

Wck doesn't pull back to punch , Wck punch doesn't work like the long fist art which using the 40cm clearance space to generate accelerate the strike.

Thus, with Wck gong fat, wcner can strike without that 40cm space needed. That is the well known inch punch.

On the other hand,
if wcner need that 40cm clearance to strike, it doesn't work well with Wck strategy which occupied the 40cm space to jam the long fist art, And it doesn't have any advantage over the long fist .


Snt needs the emei mother art technology because the snake slide worm move technology of emei , is responsible to have fine handling of joints, which lead to force flow and fast acceration handling.



3) what does it mean: "Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle"? -----


Be able to do a strike without pulling back punch and not using the 40 cm clearance means inch power ability. Only inner circle students are taught and develop this power generation which is critical to support the Wck strategy.




I'm trying to follow this conversation topic but the section I quoted above from Hendrik doesn't make sense yet. Thanks guys. ------

Hope it make sense for you now.