Is Bong Sao a Mistake?

[Graham H]

That was not the point. Don't go throwing up the whole "you can't prove that you can fight" argument if you aren't going to apply it to yourself.

Do you have special needs?

[LoneTiger108]

Graham, where is YOUR evidence that you can actually fight with your Wing Chun? Or Kevin's, or T Ray's, or PB's for that matter? Isn't your statement something of a double standard?

Well again, you speak my mind so thank you Keith.

For the sake of arguement let's say that all WC action are made up from Tan Fuk Bong, which one do you think elbow techinques come from for example. I sure you are not that bothered but just saying LOL.

I think maybe Lonetiger108 meant each has their advantages and disadvanatges.

I did indeed mean that each of the 3 seeds has it's own strengths and weaknesses or advantages and disadvantages depending on what chat floats your boat.

To reply to your question, and with my magical crazy theories well in tact, I would take a wild guess at ALL THREE!

[Mutant]

The only two posts here worth reading as at least they both use the magic word... SEED!

I think far too many people look at the Bong, Tan and Fook hand positions or whatever in a very static, non-fluid way and that will only ever destroy the possibility of developing and cultivating your Wng Chun skill.

Hence the word I am familiar with using to describe these 3 key methods... 3 SEEDS!

None of which are a mistake by the way, but all have strengths and weaknesses!

Really?!?! You're gonna chime in here to insult everyone on this thread who didn't use the magic word (to you) "seed"?!? WTF that's just ludicrous. This forum has so much bull**** over semantics it's unbelievable. KF Fighter posts a discussion relevant quote by the man himself, LJ regarding bong sao, and you dismiss that because it doent use the word seeds...


Just about everyone who's trained WC for a bit has heard the old "seeds" adage, but it's not as relevant to the discussion of whether bong has faults... that's a whole other topic on bong.

Being overly pedantic with out enough hard sparring and fighting, now THAT is a problem around here, not deviations in verbiage which only makes for some interesting discussions.

[BPWT]

Wow! So sensitive! I understood immediately that by "BS" PBWT meant "Bong Sao."

I see what you did there! A typing error for sure, but I just know this will lead to an additional 10 pages about PB's system in comparison to LT's.

To nip that in the bud, before it really begins... Yes, Graham, they have a different approach

[Paddington]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1251209]

BS = Bong Sau.

Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much. Graham, you're starting to sound a little insecure. If you believe in your method, it should be enough. No need to see insults in everything.
---------------------------------------------------------
Insecurity can lead to the dogmatism and outbursts of "true believers".
Give it up folks- practically every thread on this forum turns into noise.
[...]

The signal is still there though the ratio is extreme.

[KPM]

I see what you did there! A typing error for sure, but I just know this will lead to an additional 10 pages about PB's system in comparison to LT's.

To nip that in the bud, before it really begins... Yes, Graham, they have a different approach

Opps! Sorry! Finger dyslexia.

[LoneTiger108]

Really?!?! You're gonna chime in here to insult everyone on this thread who didn't use the magic word (to you) "seed"?!? WTF that's just ludicrous. This forum has so much bull**** over semantics it's unbelievable. KF Fighter posts a discussion relevant quote by the man himself, LJ regarding bong sao, and you dismiss that because it doent use the word seeds...

Wah! That was all a bit 'mutant' like! What is the problem? Maybe I should have been a bit clearer and used the IMHO or something but take a pill and relax dude because you are only supporting your bullsh1t analogy by over reacting.

But seriously, if you like the LJ saying so much, maybe you can explain what it means?

Just about everyone who's trained WC for a bit has heard the old "seeds" adage, but it's not as relevant to the discussion of whether bong has faults... that's a whole other topic on bong.

I must have been mistaken. As far as I am aware and from all the discussions and people I have met the word 'seed' in relation to our handwork methods is not that common at all. Especially in the PBWSL camp.

I thought is was relevant to the posts I quoted from Joy and FongSung, and I didn't see you jump all over them? But hey... maybe you're stressed out about something else, somewhere else?

Being overly pedantic with out enough hard sparring and fighting, now THAT is a problem around here, not deviations in verbiage which only makes for some interesting discussions.

You sound like you think you know me or something? Interesting. But tell me, what has this comment got to do with a thread about Bong Sau being a mistake exactly?

[Mutant]

Ahhh sorry i overreacted, your post got under my skin for a minute and got me fired up.. but now i'm on to the next thing and could care less. TOo busy here today to keep up arguing on a forum. Have a nice day gotta run.

[BPWT]

Another 'Bong Sau' perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM

[YouKnowWho]

Another 'Bong Sau' perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM

I don't understand why he had to use "wrong Bong - right Bong against right punch" in this clip.

At 1.30, if his opponent uses left palm to push on his right elbow joint (or upper arm) to force his body to spin to his left, his left arm will be jammed by his own right arm, and his left punch won't be able to punch out (in order to punch his left fist, his body will need to spin to his right).

His opponent can also use his right hand to grab on his right wrist, and pull his right arm to be across his body. This can also cause his body to spin to his left and make his left punch fail.

If his opponent's right hand can pull on his right wrist, and left hand can push on his right elbow joint, that's the most basic TCMA 搂手(Lou Shou).

To assume that he has speed to:

- move out of his opponent's striking path,
- punch left fist on his opponent's face,

while his opponent is still freezing in his right punch posture with his left palm next to his right arm may not be realistic.

Not saying his opponent has the knowledge, or is always good enough to do so. But his "wrong Bong" does give his opponent that opportunity.

[BPWT]

Yes, any of those things could happen. But in this clip Emin is simply showing the basics and how you would learn as a beginner - I guess how you would first learn the hows and whys of Bong. Later in the clips he shows how the position is, of course, not held; how the Bong almost immediately changes and Wu Sau starts the striking flow.

In this case, Wrong Bong occurs due to the contact happening via him having his right hand in Man Sau and the punch from the student being from the right hand too.

Also, he is just showing one aspect of Bong's possible use.

But there are certainly 'potential dangers' with the Wrong Bong positioning - though the tables can be turned in your favor too. So snakes and ladders.

I think the important thing is that the Bong 'shape' is not held, that it immediately flows into something else.

[Grumblegeezer]

BPWT--good clip of Emin. You know, I never remember hearing the term wrong bong in the WT system. Sure the outside gate bong puts you into a safer position, but the inside gate cross-arm bong works too ...if your bong flows instantly into an attack, as it should. Check out how Emin does this at 3:19 and again at 4:18.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhvYOPcwnGM

The "wrong bong" label implies that we choose which bong to make, and presumably choose wrong. In WT, the energy you receive from your opponent dictates the movements you make. If your arm encounters pressure that rolls it over into a bong-sau, then bong happens regardless of which arm you contact. The problem is that bong is defensive and with the inside gate cross-arm bong you are vulnerable to an attack with the other hand, so you can't hesitate even for an instant.

[BPWT]

Absolutely, Grumblegeezer... in WT we don't choose to use Bong, the incoming attack makes it happen (... in most cases ).

I heard the expression Wrong Bong in my previous Wing Chun lineage, so I knew what YKW was meaning. But in my old lineage this inside Bong Sau was still used - it just wasn't formed the way it is in the WT way of things.

I recently trained with an ex-EBMAS guy (he had to stop training with that group due to moving for work)... was fun! Sweaty, but fun. He trained drills full-out with me for about 2 hours. We collapsed afterwards and couldn't move - the next class had to kick us out - and then we went for a few beers, and I ended up needing to call my other half to come and get me with the car. LOL. The 15 minute walk home... I'd never have made it.

[stonecrusher69]

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1250893]Okay, I'll bite

Yip Man is reputed to have called Bong Sau the best or worst movement.
If done correctly it is most effective. If done incorrectly better to do nothing.

to me, a wrong or incorrect Bong Sau would be one in which you tried to use force to block a strike. IMO a proper Bong Sau is formed by your opponents energy and is used as a transitory deflection. To be effective the Bong Sau is momentary and sets the stage for something else, it does not stand alone.

As has already been mentioned on the previous thread, the elbow being raised is an unnatural position and opens the doors to attack. Perhaps this is what was being referred to [/QUOTE

The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol

[kung fu fighter]

The mistake (Bong Sao) can also be used as trap or a way of baiting the opponent .
If done correctly that would make you a Masterbaiter..lol

LMAO! That's some funny SH*T