Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks

[Syn7]

Yup, that's it. We've become so over sensitized with the PC garbage we can't even have a real discussion on the subject anymore. Too many yahoos jumped on the bandwagon and condescend with "well that's racist" every time there's a mere mention of race. Everyone's walking on egg shells afraid to say anything that could imply another person is of a different ethnic background.
You certainly can't mention any facts or statistics regarding a group of people. That's akin to genocide.

It's weakening us as a society and making us unable to deal with real issues.

Racism is classifying by race. It's not positive or negative until somebody makes it so. And yes, we are all racist. Some more than others. Some negative, some not.

This isn't an anthropology forum. I just don't see why race is even a topic? Non Chinese monks are rare, no shit! the temple is new, the country was relatively shut until relatively recently. In time, if it survives, I have no doubt there will be all sorts of diff people there. As far as I'm concerned, this is all a given. SO again, why even bring up race at all?


Oh, and you can hardly put what I said next to people using reverse racism for political agendas. Come on. Your beef is with the bastardization of the term, not me using it correctly. I specifically made a point to spell out how I did NOT feel that this was intended to be offensive. But I do feel that there is a great chance he knew it could be seen that way. My point s to the greater context in how we talk about race at all. It's a non issue IMO. Race means nothing. You wanna talk culture, ok. In that context it's not racist, it's culturalist. another term that is not postive or negative until it is made so. One could argue that I made it so. But if I wasn't clear before, I'll say it now. It was not my intent to call people racist in the way many percieve the word to mean.

Nobody here would ever call me PC You should know this by now. I speaks my mind and I use whatever language I feel will suit my goals. Whether it's relaxed, straight talk, baiting, or just plain aggressive.

Kellen, that's not all directed toward you. I just used your post as a jump off. You should know which parts are for you.

[Kellen Bassette]

Oh, and you can hardly put what I said next to people using reverse racism for political agendas.

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.

Nobody here would ever call me PC You should know this by now.

Kellen, that's not all directed toward you. I just used your post as a jump off. You should know which parts are for you.

I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist.

[Syn7]

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.



I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist.

Word.

Exploit that shit!

I find the whole reverse thing kinda funny. Race arguments manifest in strange ways sometimes. The best is the white guys, that had every opportunity in the world, that get super pissed off when a working class person of color gets a job they wanted. People just suck in general.

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

[Kellen Bassette]

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

Never being bored is a great way to live life...there's just to much to do/see/say...

[DamoY2K]

Hi LFJ, I think things are a little more "gray" than that, for exemple all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

I think the line between disciples / warrior monks / teacher monks is become far more blurred than you think. Certainly they are not Wenseng if that's what you mean, but who is today in Shaolin .....

[LFJ]

Hi LFJ, I think things are a little more "gray" than that, for exemple all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

Wuseng and Sujiadizi are practically the same, taking the same secular level of precepts. Yet the Wuseng differ in that they are also "Chujia" dizi, meaning they have "left home" and are considered monastic members of the sangha ("seng"jia).

The folks you listed are Sujiadizi, meaning they have not left home (chujia) to live in the monastery. You could call them Wushu dizi, but they are not actually Wu"seng" because they don't live monastic lives.

I think the line between disciples / warrior monks / teacher monks is become far more blurred than you think. Certainly they are not Wenseng if that's what you mean, but who is today in Shaolin .....

It's really not that complicated, as there are clear provision for becoming each, and actually 2/3 of the monastic community in Shaolin are fully ordained Hesheng.

[LFJ]

all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they?

The "3 teachers & 7 witnesses" are required for full ordinations. Secular level precept ceremonies (sujiadizi or wuseng) can be conducted by just the one master. Whoever was there were spectators.

I think some of these folks have not fully understood the implications of the ceremonies they underwent. In many cases it's due to a language barrier and/or poor interpretors who themselves aren't totally clear.

[DamoY2K]

Hi LFJ, thanks for your very informative clarification although to me in a way it further confirms the "grayness" today ..... the "Wudizi" name you jokingly use says it all ..... I think the wuseng vs official Shaolin temple sanctioned sujiadizi vs all the other presumed sujiadizi (non chinese and also chinese) situation is not so black and white IMO.

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps .....

Then you get former chinese wuseng who are still classified as wuseng by the temple and by themselves, but have been living secular lives for a long time. Where do they truly fit, in tradition but also in perception ..... perception is reality to whom perceives it.

IMO today if you are officially recognized as a teacher / master representing the temple + have undergone a wuseng-type discipleship ceremony in the temple + have studied in Shaolin becoming disciple of a legitimate Shaolin temple master = then you are for all intents and purposes a Shaolin wuseng ..... although technically perhaps not fully ..... but as far as I know Shaolin has always been a rather "gray" place when it comes to who is "in" or "out" or somewhere in between.

Anyway ultimately competences and conduct should speak louder than names and titles!