What is qi?

[imperialtaichi]

in case you never read the link I suggested (I edited out some of it, just to focus on the one aspect we r talking about):

Multifunctional Merkel cells: Their roles in electromagnetic reception (and) Reiki...
Summary
Merkel cells are located in glabrous and hairy skin and in some mucosa. They are characterized by dense-core secretory granules and cytoskeletal filaments. They are attached to neighboring keratinocytes by desmosomes and contain melanosomes similar to keratinocytes. They are excitable cells in close contact with sensory nerve endings but their function is still unclear. In this review, following roles are attributed for the first time to the Merkel cells: (1) melanosomes in Merkel cells may be involved in mammalian magnetoreception. In this model melanosome as a biological magnetite is connected by cytoskeletal filaments to mechanically gated ion channels embedded in the Merkel cell membrane. The movement of melanosome with the changing electromagnetic field may open ion channels directly producing a receptor potential that can be transmitted to brain via sensory neurons...(3) Brain–Merkel cell connection is bi-directional and Merkel cells not only absorb but also radiate the electromagnetic frequencies. Hence, efferent aspects of the palmar and plantar Merkel nerve endings may form the basis of the biofield modalities such as Reiki, therapeutic touch and telekinesis. ...In conclusion, Merkel cells are multifunctional cells which may close the gap between orthodox medicine and complementary medicine such as acupuncture and Reiki."

Very interesting hypothesis. Further investigation warranted. Could very well be related to the observed phenomenon.

But is that ABSOLUTE prove of what Qi is? The way we can say "lightling" is a stream of electrons? I am not going to pretend that I know beyond resonable doubt.

[GlennR]

Of course, as soon as you cannot compete intellectually it is time for you to run!

Careful., he'll accuse you of bullying and cry for Gene to step in.

Is your purpose to expand your own understanding and the understanding of others by interacting with others with different experiences and ideas, or is it to reinforce your own views and enslave others to your own narrow understanding?

Id suggest the line is bold is what he's hoping to achieve.

[Hendrik]

He does not know what internal jing is, he just likes to disrupt threads with a lot of empty talk, and say nothing.

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.



Cheers

Yes, I agree with you.

[Scott R. Brown]

He does not know what internal jing is, he just likes to disrupt threads with a lot of empty talk, and say nothing.

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.



Cheers

The foolishness of your comments, demonstrates your own ignorance more than it reveals my own!

If one wishes to be an accomplished martial artist, all that is required is to train hard and train frequently over an extended period of time.

This is what occurred first, THEN the experts who did this thought carefully about what they accomplished and came up with words and concepts to express their experiences in order to share them with others.

The words used were chosen according the the culture and level of knowledge available at the time. To confine oneself to these ancient ways of viewing experience is foolish and unproductive. We do not do it when it comes to medicine, we do not do it when it comes to aeronautics, engineering, diet, etc.

That is not to say there is not some valuable information available from the old ways, but they are not the final word on anything.

The reason I avoid discussing these terms is not because I am not familiar with them, it is because I have matured past them, and do not allow the archaic terms and their modern misunderstanding and misapplication of them define my direct experience.

One of the common errors of some people is to confuse a theory or principle with its practical application. Just because something is old and mysterious sounding does not make it special, complicated or necessarily right.

If one wants to understand the processes that occurs within the generation of power, all they need do is train hard, frequently and for a long period of time, and then use their own intelligence to investigate what they experience directly for themselves.

The experiences of others may be helpful, but to conform ones own direct experience to a limited traditional definition is to rob oneself of independent understanding. If one does not possess direct and independent experience then one is still a novice and does not have much authority on the subject they pretend to be an expert on.

There is a difference between the person who reads a treatise detailing the taste of an orange and then tries to claim expertise on the taste and one who has actually tasted an orange. The one is merely an expert on what others have said upon the matter, there other is an expert on the matter.

Those who have spent hours, days, years training their qi are NOT significantly better fighters or athletes then those who have not. This is a demonstrable fact. In fact, I challenge anyone to find a significantly large group of elite athletes that participate in any form of qigong training and demonstrate that such training leads to superior performance.

If elite athletes could be demonstrated, factually, to have more developed qi preservation and utilization, it would reveal that qigong exercises are a waste of time, and that qi development is cultivated by hard, frequent training over a long period of time.

This is my argument! If you wish to avoid being a troll yourself, address my point and not your misrepresentation of my motivation!

[imperialtaichi]

No, it is not about fact! It is about what each person accepts as fact, and in your mind only one view, YOURS, properly understands what is fact and what is not fact.

This is an error. If you cannot properly understand your own experiences and continue to define your personal experiences according to a narrow definition, you will never gain an advanced understanding of any topic under discussion.

Generalizing and not directed at anyone...

but I ABSOLUTELY agree!

[Scott R. Brown]

Careful., he'll accuse you of bullying and cry for Gene to step in.

A clear misunderstanding of history!

A valid complaint to authority is worth making, even in the face of ridicule from the peanut gallery!

[Scott R. Brown]

Generalizing and not directed at anyone...

but I ABSOLUTELY agree!

Thank you for understanding my point.

The thing is, all beginners require the definitions of others to guide them. These definitions, of their teachers should, eventually, lead to their own independent understanding.

As long as one does not have an independent understanding, they are a novice. That should not be confused with a lack of physical skill, however.

One may certainly be a blind follower, lacking understanding of the processes that lead to their expertise physically, but physical expertise should not be confused with an independent understanding of how this expertise occurred.

[Hendrik]

So, Qi is Qi. Jing is Jing, they are different phenomenon is different domain.



1. Qi Qi Qi, better becareful what you are dealing with.

As for can Yi lead Qi? and Qi transport the physical limb?

that is conditional not un conditional.

The fact is one must not use Yi or intention to lead the Qi , before the Qi is charge up to a certain level. without that level of fullness. leading Qi with intention is brute force and will cause issue such as qi stuck at certain location or as it called Pien Cha or side track. one needs a special Qi leading handling to lead the Qi back to its natural path. and it is very difficult to fine a doctor of such expertise.

To lead Qi with intention and let the Qi transport the physical is even one step further then just leading the Qi to flow in its medirians.


Is sending Qi out possible? yes. but that is draining, not to mention, one might take in Sickness Qi if one messing around Qi sending and recieving. Thus, it is best to never do such kind of practice. the safe practice is one only grow one's qi and improve one's own circulation naturally without messing around with sending Qi such as in some healing practice.




2. Jing Jing Jing internal Jing.


Jing is defined as the change of Force or strenght, similar to acceleration is the changes of speed. one needs strength or force or power based to produce Jing.

it is called internal Jing because one uses Qi to condition the physical body to develop or transform a physical body to be able to handle the Changes of force better, smoother, and more efficient.

Thus, Qi is a second order factor.

those who has no training on the handling of force change of Jing generation /handling will not be able to have jing handling. disregard of the Qi cultivation. how much Taiji solo one practice and how much Daoist philosophy one can recite. that is an irony fact.



3, Thus, there is no Qi blast. but force vectors manupulation support by a Qi developed/ transform physical body. it is not a philosophy but a technology with solid process step to develop internal Jin.

[xinyidizi]

I respect science and hope that very soon better discoveries can be made in this field but without the right understanding of the old knowledge you won't be able to connect them to anything.

[Scott R. Brown]

So, Qi is Qi. Jing is Jing, they are different phenomenon is different domain.



1. Qi Qi Qi, better becareful what you are dealing with.

As for can Yi lead Qi? and Qi transport the physical limb?

that is conditional not un conditional.

The fact is one must not use Yi or intention to lead the Qi , before the Qi is charge up to a certain level. without that level of fullness. leading Qi with intention is brute force and will cause issue such as qi stuck at certain location or as it called Pien Cha or side track.

To lead Qi with intention and let the Qi transport the physical is even one step further then just leading the Qi to flow in its medirians.


Is sending Qi out possible? yes. but that is draining, not to mention, one might take in Sickness Qi if one messing around Qi sending and recieving. Thus, it is best to never do such kind of practice. the safe practice is one only grow one's qi and improve one's own circulation naturally without messing around with sending Qi such as in some healing practice.




2. Jing Jing Jing internal Jing.


Jing is defined as the change of Force or strenght, similar to acceleration is the changes of speed. one needs strength or force or power based to produce Jing.

it is called internal Jing because one uses Qi to condition the physical body to develop or transform a physical body to be able to handle the Changes of force better, smoother, and more efficient.

Thus, Qi is a second order factor.

those who has no training the handling of force change of Jing generation /handling will not be able to have jing handling. disregard of the Qi cultivation. that is a irony fact.



3, Thus, there is no Qi blast. but force vectors manupulation support by a Qi developed/ transform physical body. it is not a philosophy but a technology with solid process step to develop internal Jin.

I agree with much of this, however, I would also argue it is theory only and not necessarily an accurate description of what occurs.

It is superfluous to becoming an elite, or even mediocre, fighter/athlete.

I agree that one must be careful when using yi to move qi, because one can just as easily force the qi, which leads to some of the problems you mention.

So, the word "leading" is an accurate description from one perspective, "guiding" may be another descriptive term, however it may also be problematic. As long as one guides or leads gently, and does not force, qi will flow naturally, but to force it will influence qi to flow against its natural tendency and this will cause problems.

Qi will flow naturally according to its nature if we allow it too. The best thing to do is to work on removing obstacles allowing it to move according to its nature. In which case, leading or guiding it is unnecessary!

[Scott R. Brown]

Pick up a random card from a deck and put it somewhere in your room without looking at it. Go out of your body and project to your room and view the card. This is a difficult exercise but doable if you are skilled enough. Personally I didn't do it by using a card deck but did it by using random numbers I had written on pieces on paper. If you are not skilled enough though, you can't blame the old spiritual systems and hide your failure by calling them delusional and connecting things you are not skilled enough to understand to some scientific findings. I respect science and hope that very soon better discoveries can be made in this field but without the right understanding of the old knowledge you won't be able to connect them to anything.

How many times out of 100 are you accurate? A skill has no value if it cannot be repeated consistently over time.

It has been awhile, but I recall a study that found psychics are only accurate approximately 10% of the time. This is not a percentage that carries much value. Even 50% accuracy is no better than a coin toss.

So, as a game it may be fine, but in practical terms, consistency over time is what carries practical value.

[nasmedicine]

Qi will flow naturally according to its nature if we allow it too. The best thing to do is to work on removing obstacles allowing it to move according to its nature. In which case, leading or guiding it is unnecessary!

This is key, however (please correct me if I'm wrong) this doesn't contradict anything that Hendriks has written in the past, specifically I'm referring to his writing on Yik Kam Transform. Furthermore, I was under the impression that all internal styles shared this notion. Right?

[Robinhood]

The foolishness of your comments, demonstrates your own ignorance more than it reveals my own!

If one wishes to be an accomplished martial artist, all that is required is to train hard and train frequently over an extended period of time.

This is what occurred first, THEN the experts who did this thought carefully about what they accomplished and came up with words and concepts to express their experiences in order to share them with others.

The words used were chosen according the the culture and level of knowledge available at the time. To confine oneself to these ancient ways of viewing experience is foolish and unproductive. We do not do it when it comes to medicine, we do not do it when it comes to aeronautics, engineering, diet, etc.

That is not to say there is not some valuable information available from the old ways, but they are not the final word on anything.

The reason I avoid discussing these terms is not because I am not familiar with them, it is because I have matured past them, and do not allow the archaic terms and their modern misunderstanding and misapplication of them define my direct experience.

One of the common errors of some people is to confuse a theory or principle with its practical application. Just because something is old and mysterious sounding does not make it special, complicated or necessarily right.

If one wants to understand the processes that occurs within the generation of power, all they need do is train hard, frequently and for a long period of time, and then use their own intelligence to investigate what they experience directly for themselves.

The experiences of others may be helpful, but to conform ones own direct experience to a limited traditional definition is to rob oneself of independent understanding. If one does not possess direct and independent experience then one is still a novice and does not have much authority on the subject they pretend to be an expert on.

There is a difference between the person who reads a treatise detailing the taste of an orange and then tries to claim expertise on the taste and one who has actually tasted an orange. The one is merely an expert on what others have said upon the matter, there other is an expert on the matter.

Those who have spent hours, days, years training their qi are NOT significantly better fighters or athletes then those who have not. This is a demonstrable fact. In fact, I challenge anyone to find a significantly large group of elite athletes that participate in any form of qigong training and demonstrate that such training leads to superior performance.

If elite athletes could be demonstrated, factually, to have more developed qi preservation and utilization, it would reveal that qigong exercises are a waste of time, and that qi development is cultivated by hard, frequent training over a long period of time.

This is my argument! If you wish to avoid being a troll yourself, address my point and not your misrepresentation of my motivation!

Spoken like a true external person, I am not advocating chi gives more power than lifting weights, that is not what we are saying.

It is more about efficiency of energy, than raw power, since you already have made it clear that you have not done the necessary training to know what we are talking about, your view does not mean much as far as internal jing is concerned.

Just keep up your weight training, and hope in old age it works. Lol



Cheers

[Hendrik]

Spoken like a true external person, I am not advocating chi gives more power than lifting weights, that is not what we are saying.

It is more about efficiency of energy, than raw power, since you already have made it clear that you have not done the necessary training to know what we are talking about, your view does not mean much as far as internal jing is concerned.

Just keep up your weight training, and hope in old age it works. Lol



Cheers

let it be. he is who he is.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is key, however (please correct me if I'm wrong) this doesn't contradict anything that Hendriks has written in the past, specifically I'm referring to his writing on Yik Kam Transform. Furthermore, I was under the impression that all internal styles shared this notion. Right?

My grief with Hendrik is not the details, it is the absolutist attitude and his reluctance or inability to accept alternate descriptions of the same experiences/effects.

There is not only one way to express these processes. Just because I understand them in the manner that he expresses them, the traditionally accepted Chinese methodology, does not mean I accept that method as an entirely accurate description. It is merely one way out of many to express identical experiences.

These are NOT concepts exclusive to the Chinese culture, they are universal principles expressed differently throughout history according to each specific historical period and culture. Even Qi is not an entirely Chinese concept. It is found in most mystical traditions, it is just experienced differently according to the culture and foundational belief systems of the people describing it.

Hendrik does a dis-service to others he is presuming to help and/or educate, by blindly adhering to a narrow description of universal principles. It demonstrates his limited understanding and insight upon topics he presents himself as an expert upon.

He may have some knowledge of the Chinese methodology, but that fact he cannot seem to understand these are universal principles expressed differently cross-culturally demonstrates his narrow experience and understanding of the principles. He appears to have book knowledge so to speak, but limited practical knowledge, of what I have been saying to him for years now, or it would be obvious to him. Therefore I conclude that he conforms his experiences to the traditional teachings, instead of allowing the traditional teachings to guide him to independent understanding free of the limitations of tradition.