How about a functional model of Qi?

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Sorry but this will be a monster of a thread. I'll try to break it up into short paragraphs so it can be scanned more easily.

I teach at a school of Chinese medicine. I'm a medical Anthropologist by training and I have specialized in the differences between the fundamental medicals models of bio-medicine and Chinese medicine. One of the first things to keep in mind is that the metaphysical models of one paradigm cannot be explained in terms of another paradigm. Ideas of one world-view can be outlined or discussed using another world-view's models, but there comes a point where deeper meaning is lost in the translation.

Qi has been subject to this kind of cross-cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't believe in it. Saying you don't believe in Qi is like saying you don't believe in "relationship" or "influence."

Qi is an old idea. The model I will try to explain is at least 2300 years old as it is the one clearly laid out in the Huangdi Neijing, the seminal work of Chinese medicine. While essentially a medical text it also lays out a metaphysical model that is basic to Chinese philosophy. The oldest character for Qi represented vapours rising. In time the radical for grain was placed below to show the steam that rises from cooking millet. What happens when you smell food cooking? Your body responds; stomach gurgles, mouth waters, etc. So something about the cooking food exerted an influence on you. Qi.

What is the nature of this influence? It requires that we introduce two other philosophical concepts that have been subjected to ideational mutilation, Yin and Yang. We often see the simplistic folk models of Yin and Yang that are the lists of things associated with the two concepts. (Yin is femine, cool, dark, receptive/ Yang is masculine, warm, light, creative). These lists are not strictly wrong, yet they obscure the reason the lists were made in the first place.

"Between heaven and earth are Qi and its laws; between Yin and Yang are Qi and its laws." This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, its context. So Qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang.

Yin is the tendency of things in the universe to coalesce and slow down. Yin is the tendency to crystalization and struction. Yin is the tendancy for matter to fall down and shadows to form in opposition to light.

Yang is the tendency for things to change and become other things. The tendency to dissolve and the tendency to grow. The tendency for clouds to boil and the skin to tan.

All objects of sense experience are an interplay of Yin and Yang. This includes individual things as well as systems. This is why the concept of Taiji is the great terminus or the grand ultimate, because it includes all things of the universe. Yin and Yang are linked and one cannot be discussed without invoking the other. Stucture cannot be divorced from function.

They stand in mutual opposition.
They are rooted in each other.
They define each other's limits.
They transform into one another.

When we discuss the balance of Yin and Yang at any given moment or in any given state we are talking about Qi. It is important to understand that Yin and Yang are not absolute states of being, rather they are part of a moving frame that can applied in a variety of ways to any situation. There are many situations where the place of Yin and Yang is considered to be understood and relatively predictable so they are left out of the discussion. One of these places is in the context of the relationship between body and mind.

When we look at the basic idea of body and mind in Chinese philosophy we are talking about Jing (essence) and Shen (spirit or the summmation of mental-emotion aspects of the individual). The relative interaction of Jing and Shen is the normal context for the discussion of Qi in the martial arts. When someone says "lead Qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence Qi. However, you could also say "absorb the opponents force to use their strength against them." In this case Yin is found in the reception and relaxed connection of the defender (Song), and the Yang is found in the aggressor's force (Li). The resulting Qi is how the interaction plays out. If the defender is subtle and skilled the Qi will be the Qi of a throw perhaps. If the aggressor is more subtle and skilled the result may be the Qi of a successful hit. If the aggressor is very subtle they may be able to become more Yin that the defender and so invert the frame of Yin and Yang.

So to come back to the idea "Do you believe in Qi?" may be more usefully phrased "Do you believe in the interplay of structure and function? Do you believe in the interaction of order and chaos?"

I don't mean to take sides in the hugely long debate on that "other" thread. I don't really agree with either the pragmatic disbelievers or the advocates. No-one on that thread convinced me that they really understood the concept of Qi. Perhaps we can move towards a middle ground?

[RAF]

Kevin:

That is a definitive explanation of qi and its development.

The issue, I believe, is whether one must accept this model (or something similar) in order to develop effectively and comprehensively in a traditional Chinese martial art such as taijiquan.

One argument is that the model is outdated and Western Science and its framework are enough for effective development in a traditional Chinese martial arts such as taijiquan. I also don't like one paradigm trying to subsume another as is the case of Western medicine and it relationship to TCM. The two stand alone (as explanation), in my estimation. I am sure in practice, they might be used complementary but one cannot account for the other.

This whole argument is also clouded by the acceptance or rejection of ling kong jing both in theory and in practice (if you got it, prove it to me mentality).

Your writing also triggered off memory of an old article which follows a similiar line of thinking and explanation:

"Sacrifice, Ritual, and Alchemy: The Spiritual Traditions in Taijiquan," Dennis Willmont, Vol. 6, No. 1, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 1997, pp. 10 -29.

Based on your previous posts throughout the year, I hope you seriously consider putting your notes together and producing a book for the traditional Chinese martial arts. You have a gift for explaining the complex. You might be one of a handful that has the technical and experiential background to do it.

[count]

I AGREE! You should publish, only minus the opinion at the end.

I don't mean to take sides in the hugely long debate on that "other" thread. I don't really agree with either the pragmatic disbelievers or the advocates. No-one on that thread convinced me that they really understood the concept of Qi. Perhaps we can move towards a middle ground?

1.)Debates never really have a chance in an open forum of contributors of various levels of understanding who insist on asserting their opinions as fact.

2.) This comment will only serve to ignite another lengthy debate between people who think they understand and ones who don't understand.

3.) You have already taken a side.

Aside from that I am only posting to say how much I enjoyed this piece. I don't want to get involved in any lengthy debate either. I hope all others will gain some understanding from reading this. The ones who don't, too bad.

Let me know privately if you have any questions about publishing or production of your work. I might be able to help.

[GLW]

The concepts are all there..... If you wish to understand Qi you have to read TCM classics. You get into Yin / Yang Theory, Jing Luo, Zhang Fu organ theory, and 5 Element theory. all of which is explained in most classical and modern texts on Traditional Chinese Medicine.

There are plenty of people in the martial world who put out ideas and teach things that do against TCM concept and theory. there are also plenty who make it mystical and magical.... From reading those texts, to me, it is anything BUT mystical and magical.

Whether the ideas are 100% correct or not, they serve as a foundation that works. Using the concepts, you can examine, diagnose, treat, and obtain results...that are reporducable. You can apply the same principles to pratice and develop and again obtain results that are reporducable. SO...it works. As shown in the original post here...if you truly want to understand it, you go back to the classical TCM texts. It has all been written down and much of it has been tanslated into many languages.

[Ky-Fi]

Yeah, it seems almost every individual has a slightly different understanding of qi in relation to martial arts.

I realize that qi can refer to a vast multitude of things in the Chinese culture, so I've tried to narrow my focus down to the use of qi purely in a martial context. Based on what I've been taught, and pondering my own training, here's where I'm coming from:

qi-----body's energy, flows most easily through relaxed muscles, led by the intent of the mind, increases in proportion to the ability of the mind to focus, and circulates more forcefully when propelled by reverse breathing.

li-----muscular strength

jin-------manifiested qi/li

EVERY SINGLE TECHNIQUE has to involve some proportion of both qi and li. If you tense every muscle in your body to try and use all li, you'll be stiff as a board and completely unable to move. If you relax every muscle in your body to try and use all qi, then you'll collapse like a jellyfish.

soft jin------a jin that has a higher proportion of qi to li. Examples would be snapping a towel, cracking a whip, a pitcher throwing a baseball. When William CC Chen punches through a board with a raw egg in his hand, and the egg doesn't break, this is a soft jin. His alignment of fist, wrist, elbow and arm is so perfect he doesn't need to tense the muscles in his arm or fist hardly at all.

hard jin------a jin that has a higher proportion of li to qi. An extreme example of this would be pushing a car--it really relies a lot on the strength of the muscles, tensed over a long period of time. But even this technique relies on some qi. When you push a car, you don't just immediately tense all of your muscles against the car. First, you relax your body, inhale, reverse your breathing so you're pushing out on the dantien and exhale slightly, and focus the intent of your mind to lead the qi to your arms right before you actually tense and use those muscles to push the car.


From reading a lot of these qi threads, I think I'm the opposite of a lot of people here--it seems that there's a number of people that hate the idea of qi, but they still are into the CMA. I've mostly been focusing on sport fencing the last few months, but I think the qi model is so effective, comprehensive and explanatory that I apply that to almost any physical activity I do.

I think one of the problems is that (and this is helped by the frauds) is that qi is often pulled out of the whole equation as if it's the mystical, all powerful ingredient. To my understanding, if you're really good in CMA, it doesn't just mean you have strong qi. You can have strong qi and SUCK in martial arts. What you want is strong JIN, and jin is a combination of qi and li---in a martial sense, qi is ALWAYS inextricibly intertwined with li.

I think someone on one of those threads said "so is qi just a case of good body mechanics and experience?" I would say no---that's not qi at all. You can have great body mechanics and years of experience, and still have incredibly weak, lifeless techniques. And that's exactly where I think the qi paradigm is so effective. In addition to great body mechanics and years of experience, you also need qi. Go back to my definition of qi:

"body's energy, flows most easily through relaxed muscles, led by the intent of the mind, increases in proportion to the ability of the mind to focus, and circulates more forcefully when propelled by reverse breathing."

This is a crucial element to virtually any powerful physcal technique. Watch a baseball game---do you think a pitcher would have any success if he wasn't using qi, as I defined it?

Although everyone in every culture will admit that mental focus, reversed breathing and relaxing unnessecary muscles is crucial for effective physical techniques, I'm so fond of the CMA paradigm because it gives you very specific ways to focus, train and be sensitive to this crucial aspect, and it puts it in the framework of a cogent theory that allows you to work and progress with those facets of martial skill.

Again, I'm just giving my perspective of the use of qi in a very narrow context----offensive jins. My teacher is a very serious traditional qigong teacher, and would be able to go deeply into the meridians and small and grand circulation and all that stuff. I will admit that I'm not as interested in that side of it, and haven't delved too deeply there. But the way he's given such real-world, non-CMA examples for the use of qi has really made me a fan of the whole idea of qi for martial arts. Although the external techniques may be different, I personally think that martial artists can get similar levels of power whether they train qigong or not----because the human body is the same, and we naturally gravitate towards using what will give us the best techniques. So, I don't really think qigong is some magical formual, but I do think it's a very comprehensive paradigm that can help you really think deeply about, and get the most from, your techniques----at least that's what it's done for me.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Thanks for the responses.

Cheers Count, sorry if you found my last comment a bit ascerbic. That outrageously long thread was full of stuff that put me in a bad mood. While I was spoiling for a fight, I held off as long as I could.

[Walter Joyce]

Kevin,
I hope my comments in "that other thread" didn't anger you. I readily concede that you have a much deeper understanding of the concept of qi than what was evidenced in the thread. I want to thank you for your clear eludication and explanation of the concept, it was eductaional for me.
Walter
p.s. It appears that my use of jing instead of jin was obviously in error. I was aware of the conseptual difference, but readily admit I am slow to learn the proper terminolgy.
Ky-Fi I really enjoyed your post as well, thank you for sharing your understanding of the various jins.

[No_Know]

""Between heaven and earth are Qi and its laws; between Yin and Yang are Qi and its laws." This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, its context. So Qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang. "

No, Yin and Yang are the interplay of Qi.-ish. Yin=Heaven Yang=Earth. whether the concepts of Yin and Yang or the material things of and found between Heaven and Earth Qi and it's laws are between. Since Qi and its laws are Between Yin and Yang...Oh, I see. You took it to mean that the cieling and floor is Yin and Yang. However, if the extremes are Yin and Yang, then they cannot be the in between.


Qi is muchly everything. Yin and Yang are the rulers of anything. Yin and Yang explain Qi. Yin and Yang should not be considered the definition of Qi.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Walter, it wasn't any of your posts that bugged me, rather the medical opinions. When someone dismisses acupuncture as "merely"placebo I'm sorely tempted to wade in (it works on animals and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't have anything to do with belief system dogs or horses).

As for Jing and Jin, the character can be pronounced both ways (regional variation). However when said Jing it is a complete ****nym (both morpheme and tone) for essence. If you can't see the written characters this can be confusing. I know that Yang Guotai, the Cheng style Bagua teacher, even pronounces it Zhi, so it is a ****nym for "will." To make things worse many specifically martial arts terms were entirely oral and the characters for them were only made up in the last 150 years, so they are not always consistent.

Ky-Fi, I also like your expression of hard and soft Jin. I would tend to use Yi or mind where you use Qi. Again it is the balance of relative Yin and Yang with Qi being the interaction between these levels. I find that when martial arts masters say "lead the Qi" they are actually talking about the result not the process. "Mind leads the Qi, Qi leads the strength/Yi ling Qi, Qi ling Li." This classic phrase expesses the order of action I'm talking about.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Interesting name. Now... how did you get to your conclusion again?

The quote "Between Heaven..." is and ancient one and I did not change the order of the words. That you draw a necessary connection between Yin and Heaven/Yang and Earth is your interpretation.

How is it that you find Yin and Yang to be the edges of the universe, the extremes of things? In my study of classical Chinese philosophy I understood that the association of Taiji and Yin/Yang was that Yin and Yang extend to the most extreme, and so there is nothing in the perceivable world which is not Yin and Yang.

"Qi is muchly everything." Uh... what? You lose me in your thinking, as I can find nothing here to actually support your conclusions. Do you know of any classic sources I may look at? If you are just being a troll then please leave it alone.

By the way in my last post the word ho-monym seems to have been altered. Curious.

[Walter Joyce]

the word alteration was the result of an automatic board censor...deduce from there. And even with the explanation, yes, it is odd.
Walter

[Ky-Fi]

" I would tend to use Yi or mind where you use Qi. Again it is the balance of relative Yin and Yang with Qi being the interaction between these levels."

KW, I think you're getting a little over my head here----I'm going to have to go back to your original post and think about that a while


" I find that when martial arts masters say "lead the Qi" they are actually talking about the result not the process. "Mind leads the Qi, Qi leads the strength/Yi ling Qi, Qi ling Li." This classic phrase expesses the order of action I'm talking about."

If I follow you, then I certainly agree with this. I didn't mean to imply in my post that the mind should intently focus on leading the qi---as I understand it if you focus too much on that you can actually hinder the process----the mind should be intently focused on the strike, and with proper body mechanics the rest falls into place. Hmmm.....it's difficult to put this into words.

One thing my teacher has said that I think describes this well is "qi is like a bull with a ring in its nose. It can't be pushed, but it can be led."

[No_Know]

"How is it that you find Yin and Yang to be the edges of the universe, the extremes of things?"

My comprehension, the Universe is merely part of more. Your quote claimed between,... whatever is between, seperates. That which it seperates mark its boundries. In the case of your mention that indicates that Yin and Yang are extremes.


"In my study of classical Chinese philosophy I understood that the association of Taiji and Yin/Yang was that Yin and Yang extend to the most extreme, and so there is nothing in the perceivable world which is not Yin and Yang. "

That Yin and Yang extend to the extreme might refer to Yin and Yang themselves. And that these two things can be completely themselves. Opposed to Yin and Yang being as a substance which extend Within the Universe.


""Qi is muchly everything." Uh... what? You lose me in your thinking, as I can find nothing here to actually support your conclusions. Do you know of any classic sources I may look at? If you are just being a troll then please leave it alone. "


It doesn't seem sensible to support what I say if I understand it to be accepted believed truth. It's fairly likely a comprehension--a composite of relevant things.


In effect I might have heard that everything was made of Qi. I could see how that might be so, therefore I had no issues that that was a concept. But on to my thinking and that statement.


I had the concept that everything is made of Qi. When my foot or leg would cramp, I used to tend to use dynamic tension and straighten what I thought was getting painfully tense. Cramps come from contraction. Contraction is a closerness. If everything was Qi then physical~ things which contract might be approaching pure~ Qi--Qi that hadn't become a macrophysical something. Qi has been acceptablly to me, bioenergy. If I allow the cramp to happen the item seems to get to a place where it can't continue to contract. Warmth occured and it could feel like very warm water flowing in the area. The cramping seemed to subside. It seems more flexible and I presume it would be able to take more stress than before. I concluded-ish that It was the Qi that is my body approaching it's pureself~. And that had to be good as far as developing me.~ Qi has been considered energy. A famous person called, Einstein, supposedly indicated a relationship that Matter and energy were interchangeable. At least that energy was mass times the contant of White light squared. To split an atom it has to go fast. An atom can be used to create an explosion. Perhaps it is that energy is release in an explosion. If subatomically speeds relevat to the size of the subatomic partical(s) involved could rupture enough and Will could guide that limited release of energy~ perhaps this is a gist of Qi things/uses/occurances.

Thinking found in Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu, Squirrel. I hope that you haven't heard of it Kevin Wallbridge.

As to the word alteration, as put by one called Walter Joyce, and Ken Wallbridge's query~. The prefix spelled, h o m o usually meaning same, in a Dialect of English in America seems to be a popularly accepeted shortening of the word h o m osexual. Although the actual transliteration differs from popular use. It is standardly taken to refer to same gender relations of a sexual intercourse nature. And is considered name calling or akin to racist/derogatory comment. Therefore disallowed in this respectfully public place. Perhaps some-such.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

No_Know, I have tried to read your post fairly closely but I have trouble following your train of thought. It seems that you got caught up in your own sematic juggling and failed to look at the whole position that I was outlining, that being: Qi is the relationship between Yin and Yang. This doesn't imply some sort of metaphysical gap that has to be leapt across with Qi. The interplay of structive and generative tendencies is Qi. This doesn't imply seperation, it implies intimate connection. The reason I included the quote was to indicate that my argument was actually based in some real research, and that it was not just some spurious speculation made during a cramp.

As for the ***s, I wasn't actually asking why it happened. I was just being facetious. Sometimes I write like a doddering professor, but I can spot the obvious from time to time.

[No_Know]

Ohhhh.

"It seems that you got caught up in your own sematic juggling and failed to look at the whole position that I was outlining, that being: Qi is the relationship between Yin and Yang. "

Yet the reply to which you refer was based on your asking not about your position, but my conclusion.

"No_Know, I have tried to read your post fairly closely but I have trouble following your train of thought. "


Perhaps following so closely is one of your troubles. Perhaps you should look at a whole of mine.

"This doesn't imply some sort of metaphysical gap that has to be leapt across with Qi."


In a room there is space Between cieling and floor. The phrase you used stated Qi and it's laws were Between Yin and Yang. Between, by it's definition, indicates/implies a gap.

"The interplay of structive and generative tendencies is Qi. This doesn't imply seperation, it implies intimate connection."


Theoretically, basically, only things that are sperate or were seperated can be conntcted.

" The reason I included the quote was to indicate that my argument was actually based in some real research, and that it was not just some spurious speculation made during a cramp. "

Before it is written it is done or observed being done. Your reasearch is secondary or tertiary. My, " spurious speculation made during a cramp. " Seems much like, if not, Primary research.



"As for the ***s, I wasn't actually asking why it happened. I was just being facetious. Sometimes I write like a doddering professor, but I can spot the obvious from time to time."



"That you draw a necessary connection between Yin and Heaven/Yang and Earth is your interpretation."


The phrases are Yin and Yang and Heaven and Earth. However, those are not respective of each other.

In a recent post My put was, Heaven=Yin; Earth=Yang this is a misprint. And is wrong-truth~.

It has been established that Heaven relates to Yang and Earth relates to Yin.

Ken Wallbridge, it was my intention to relate Heaven with Yang and Earth with Yin?

Thank you for your scoffing and sarcasm or the such.


After re-looking at your first post on this thread you started, I realize that you were not seeking understanding. You were more sharing your educated understanding. My post wold then be inappropriate. Thank you for sharing some might say.