Chinese sword guard design

[bawang]

So why bother with the complicated manufacture of "functional" weapons if no one knew how to use them?

the reason is very obvious, the jian is symmetrical and looks pretty. and it was also a symbol of nobility and power.

I can also see that we are at an impasse because we are defining usefulness and survival of an combat art differently. The attributes of a trained army versus militia or single fighter are different things.

if you take a look at any other classical weapon form, between the flower movements there are actual fighting techniques. this is not the case with sword forms. sometimes up to 90% of the entire form is flower.

there is also no such thing as "military/civilian/militia". they all practice the exact same techniques. the only difference is the amount of flower movements between the forms.

[YMC]

I also see the forward facing guard as a trapping device.
Even on some butterfly knife designs, the guard is not so elongated, but still able to trap the opponent's weapon.
Now, back to the blood cup. I have also heard it described as such, particularly from Paul Chen/Hanwei swords.

As far as I know, the technical term for the guard (hushou) has no reference to being a blood cup. However, fullers are referred to as xuecao, which translates to blood groove/ditch even though that's not their purpose; fullers acting with an I-beam effect, cutting down on weight but retaining as much strength as possible.

[YMC]

the reason is very obvious, the jian is symmetrical and looks pretty. and it was also a symbol of nobility and power.




if you take a look at any other classical weapon form, between the flower movements there are actual fighting techniques. this is not the case with sword forms. sometimes up to 90% of the entire form is flower.

Again, not disagreeing with any of your points. Just different interpretations I guess.

As I stated, performance and show pieces were made. Yet, at the same time, rustic village forge quality pieces of functional features were also made. The rich nor literati were not going to buy these pieces. In the photos I showed an example of what collectors call a village quality jian with upswept guard. These jian are usually wonderfully balanced, but no frills and frankly of poor decorative value. These jian usually don't have scabbards, or if they did, pigskin scabbards that haven't survived the century very well. No village literati was going to wear this piece as a show of his station; there were prettier things out there. So the common interpretation among the ethnographic weapons collector is that such pieces were functional weapons intended for use.

As for the emptiness of jian forms, again, no argument from me, at least of the forms I'm familiar with. In addition, I will leave arguments over what useful techniques in forms actually exist to people who like them or train them. My point remains this, performance oriented and decorative swords were made, functional swords were made as well as swords that were both. Many functional pieces I have handled demonstrate edge knicks as well as signs of resharpening and regrinding, so they were being used for something other than dancing. Perhaps not well, perhaps not prettily, but used.

[bawang]

i was not arguing that jian was not used, i am glad we can agree.
i agree the jian was used, it is very easy to use with a shield (teng pai) since the hardest part of using the jian is trying to block and parry with it. and countless people probably tried to recreate real usable techniques. i got no problem with that.

i wanted to remind people jian is not an ancient magical weapon like in crouching dragon hidden penus, it is actually one of the most unusable weapons in kung fu.

my problem is with the kung fu sword fetish, the rediculous amount of unrealisitc wrist cutting techniques, and arguments over pointless things like the guard. the guard doesnt affect the jian in any way at all. every time i read somethign like this i go into a burning rage and i smash my keyboard, then i drink beer, so i am not happy. i am not hapy at all.

[David Jamieson]

The limb (or whatever) closest to you is the target of attack. Hence the ubiquity of wrist cutting techniques.

This sword plays more like fencing. The wrist holding the sword is often the legit target

[SimonM]

My first inclination is the same, but I'd be curious to read other opinions. A bell guard allows the blade past. Obviously it has other defensive attributes, I'm just curious if others have views on this.

That said, I'm not as concerned about the opponent having blade contact at the crosspiece. Their leverage is not better in such a position, imo.

I agree.

Most control happens when your sword is contacting the lead 1/3 of the blade. If you are up on the forte you have little control over your opponent.

[TenTigers]

wrist cutting is a viable technique. Even in staff techniques, the goal is to strike the wrist, whether in a direct strike, or to slide down the opponent's weapon and strike the wrist, then the next strike is to the head or torso. "When using the staff, don't expect two sounds," is an old adage. There should never be "clack" "Clack" "Clack" back and forth in true fighting. That is for two-man sets, which are for demo purposes and are basically useless for teaching real skill, other than "clack" "clack". You strike the hand/wrist, the weapon drops.
The other thing is that gim techniques are at a higher level than the dao, which in turn raises your skill level.
But I am in agreement with the uselessness of the flower techniques.
My Sifu taught me a Southern "Village," gim set that is devoid of flower technique. There is no walking around, spinning, prancing techniques. Only parrying and cutting. It's no crowd pleaser, but it gets the job done.

[SimonM]

No shock. Thought it was common knowledge. It's a symbolic weapon largely but still good for expressing some kinds of skills.

I just like swords. I don't care if they're obsolete.

[SimonM]

But I am in agreement with the uselessness of the flower techniques.
My Sifu taught me a Southern "Village," gim set that is devoid of flower technique. There is no walking around, spinning, prancing techniques. Only parrying and cutting. It's no crowd pleaser, but it gets the job done.

Good for him!

I'll be honest, my sifu did teach the flower techniques, but to those of us interested in learning how to use the sword to actually fight, he pointed out the techniques that were just for show, and encouraged us to use realistic techniques in sparring.

[GeneChing]

I just like swords. I don't care if they're obsolete.

As long as it's sharp, it's functional in my hand.

[GeneChing]

The Contact-Guard Grip - Strong Support for the Tai Chi Sword by Robert Dreeben, with photos by Amada Alcantara.

[SimonM]

Interesting article, but Dreeban's understanding of European sword technique is flawed.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Even into the 20th century there were sword duels in China (before Mao) and in Taiwan.

The sword with the upward open guard used by Mr Dreeben is woefully inadequate for sword locking purposes.

mickey

[pazman]

Even into the 20th century there were sword duels in China (before Mao) and in Taiwan.

Link or citation?

[bruno3997]

Nice forum