Shaolin diet, vegetarianism and stuff

[wenshu]

but u and Weshu r so high up on ur own soap boxes, that apparently you can't accept the possibiity that vegetariansim is not the only approach to a healthy diet/lifestyle; instead, u and Wenshu characterize me as being taken in by the latest fad, and then dismissing me because of my supposed zealotry towards paleo / primal; not once have you taken the time to consider that perhaps I have a more developed perspective on the topic; instead, my supplying a contrary perspective gets me branded as some dupe with no ability to think for myself; if anyone are acting in a zealot-like manner, it's you two, pushing ur perspective to the exclusion of others, whereas I and Scott are simply pointing out that it doesn't seem to be as absolute as u claim

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Pump your fucking brakes.

I didn't say shit about superiority, I have no problem at all with meat consumption. In fact I have no problem cooking meat for other people and I think a balanced diet period is what is important whether or not it includes meat or not. I didn't characterize you or meat eaters in any way. I don't think vegetarians are better people, or that it is a diet that everyone could benefit from. Don't put words in my mouth.

You guys are conflating me with Mathew or these Wugulun people.

Someone asked a question about experiences with vegetarianism and I offered them and Mr. Brown went off on a anti vegetarianism tirade and started throwing random arguments at me when all I said is that Chinese Monastics take vegetarianism very seriously.

My issue with the paleo diet is that while it does have a lot of good principles in it; at its most basic it's just about eating clean food. But the obsession over what does and doesn't fit the paleo criteria based on uninformed assumptions and the twisting of evolutionary developmental biology to suit those assumptions is what I have a problem with.

[Scott R. Brown]

TOUCHE!!

I have been slain by the mediocrity of your reasoning skill!

Which gives proof to the proposition, "There is nothing so dangerous as a wit half used!

I doff my chapeau, bow deeply and exclaim, "Say what?".....er, I mean, "UNCLE!!!"

Feel better now?

[wenshu]

TOUCHE!!

I have been slain by the mediocrity of your reasoning skill!

Which gives proof to the proposition, "There is nothing so dangerous as a wit half used!

I doff my chapeau, bow deeply and exclaim, "Say what?".....er, I mean, "UNCLE!!!"

You sir, put the ass in asinine.

Feel better now?

Nope, still wait for these numerous treatises.

And other Buddhist fighters have eaten meat as well. There are a number of treatises on the subject!

[Scott R. Brown]

Well.......what do you expect from a narcist?

We narcists get bored easily when the entertainment becomes droll!

Throwing a temper tantrum, won't get you what you are looking for from me!

Although, if tgy is in a good enough humor, he may just ream you a new one! As for myself, you have lost your entertainment value for the time being!

I recommend more mirror gazing!

[GeneChing]

Ahhh! That explains my extra-large brain.

Our local ranchers don't use hormones! That is for you big city folk!

Hold the phone. If your local ranchers don't use hormones, what explains your extra-large brain?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hold the phone. If your local ranchers don't use hormones, what explains your extra-large brain?

Hey! Yeah! WHATS WITH THAT?

Maybe I'm just super smart or something?

Oh wait......I know...all narcists have big heads.....yeah thats got to be it! It goes with our swell self-esteem! That must mean that all narcists are ALSO super smart......Alex!

[Happy Tiger]

Sooooo, besides the issue that's fuelling this charming part of the thread, is there any formal traditional records of Kosher Chan Cooking? Any nutritional concepts. I defiantly feel it's up to the individual how they perceive the implications either way of their diet decisions.

[taai gihk yahn]

My issue with the paleo diet is that while it does have a lot of good principles in it; at its most basic it's just about eating clean food. But the obsession over what does and doesn't fit the paleo criteria based on uninformed assumptions and the twisting of evolutionary developmental biology to suit those assumptions is what I have a problem with.

I linked to Mark Sisson's site specifically because:
a) he caveats everything he states by clearly differentiating the points he makes that he believes are supported by his reading of the research (which I find to be thorough and accurate), and what he believes based on his personal experience / subjective sense; doing so gives him, in my mind, credibility because he tells u which is which
b) while he offers guidelines on food, his entire perspective is based on not obsessing, and learning to eat in a way that is intuitive / "natural" as opposed to regimented and detail-obsessed
c) the idea that from, an evolutionary perspective, the change from hunter / gatherer to agrarian culture happened rather quickly and and relatively recently and that in many ways we are still adapting to that change as a species isn't so far out, from my perspective;in my mind, the main difference is our decreased degree of movement: movement throughout the day as well as over time; when u r nomadic, u use resources in a given area, and move on, allowing those resources to replenish; as such, u have a more direct appreciation for that cycle; when u r sedentary, and things appear in front of u w/out u having to go get them urself, u loose that; of course, this isn't a perfect situation, and certainly as a species, the shift to an agrarian economy, including hyperspecialization of labor obviously stood humanity in good stead for survival and propogation (altho given the deep sh1t we r in now, perhaps we were too sucessful...); again, I am not saying we shud all go back and live in caves or that we shud micro-scutinize every morsal of food; and neither is Sisson - which is why I like him, he presents what seems to me a relatively more balanced perspective on the whole paleo thing than others I've read; and because his perspective is balanced, I think he makes some compelling arguments for why it's possible to be a meat eater and b healthy; which isn't to say it works for everyone, and isn't to say that a vegetarian lifestyle isn't good as well - it probably just depends;

anyway, I am sorry is I mischaracterized ur response

[GeneChing]

Kosher Chan Cooking?

Is that anything like Catholic Daoist cooking?

Buddhist vegetarianism stems more from ahimsa than personal health. Buddhism also has the wu hun (五葷) prohibitions, which is a notion that five herbs are too stimulating and should be avoided. Those herbs are chives, garlic, leeks, onions, and shallots. Only some sects observe this. I'm too attached to garlic - more than I was too meat - to give that up personally. Although I will add that there was a SF restaurant that used to observe this and the food was fantastic.

[wenshu]

I linked to Mark Sisson's site specifically because:
a) he caveats everything he states by clearly differentiating the points he makes that he believes are supported by his reading of the research (which I find to be thorough and accurate), and what he believes based on his personal experience / subjective sense; doing so gives him, in my mind, credibility because he tells u which is which
b) while he offers guidelines on food, his entire perspective is based on not obsessing, and learning to eat in a way that is intuitive / "natural" as opposed to regimented and detail-obsessed
c) the idea that from, an evolutionary perspective, the change from hunter / gatherer to agrarian culture happened rather quickly and and relatively recently and that in many ways we are still adapting to that change as a species isn't so far out, from my perspective;in my mind, the main difference is our decreased degree of movement: movement throughout the day as well as over time; when u r nomadic, u use resources in a given area, and move on, allowing those resources to replenish; as such, u have a more direct appreciation for that cycle; when u r sedentary, and things appear in front of u w/out u having to go get them urself, u loose that; of course, this isn't a perfect situation, and certainly as a species, the shift to an agrarian economy, including hyperspecialization of labor obviously stood humanity in good stead for survival and propogation (altho given the deep sh1t we r in now, perhaps we were too sucessful...); again, I am not saying we shud all go back and live in caves or that we shud micro-scutinize every morsal of food; and neither is Sisson - which is why I like him, he presents what seems to me a relatively more balanced perspective on the whole paleo thing than others I've read; and because his perspective is balanced, I think he makes some compelling arguments for why it's possible to be a meat eater and b healthy; which isn't to say it works for everyone, and isn't to say that a vegetarian lifestyle isn't good as well - it probably just depends;

anyway, I am sorry is I mischaracterized ur response

Jokes about Orthorexia aside, Sisson is not too bad, from what I've read he does a good job of supporting his conclusions in a reasonable manner, at least for someone who is marketing a product.

I have an immediate revulsion to the romantic thinking that forms the central assumption that evolution reached it's apogee at a specific determinable moment. Evolution is linear, it moves forward. If the central justification behind paleo is evolution but they move backwards to some arbitrary point then the entire premise is based on an irreconcilable contradiction and all conclusions drawn from that point forward are going to be inherently flawed.

I certainly think a meat based diet can be just as healthy as a plant based one, just as I think a diet containing grains can be as healthy as one that doesn't.

Are you familiar with the Quegu shiqi 卻穀食氣? I haven't been able to find much about it in English but it outlines abstaining from grains, at least periodically. Of course it could all just be some opaque, convoluted metaphor.

"Those who eat grain eat what is square, those who eat qi eat what is round. Round is heaven; square is earth."

http://goo.gl/Ud36p

[Scott R. Brown]

No one claimed evolution has ceased. If you read up on the literature concerning the evolution of humans in regards to the paleolithic diet you will discover that humans simply haven't had enough time to adapt to a fully veggie diet.

[rett]

Sooooo, besides the issue that's fuelling this charming part of the thread, is there any formal traditional records of Kosher Chan Cooking? Any nutritional concepts. I defiantly feel it's up to the individual how they perceive the implications either way of their diet decisions.

Maybe this is of interest:

Apart from what foods should be avoided, Shaolin Chanyi encourages people with illnesses should eat seven categories of food everyday and with one to three kinds from each category. The seven categories are i) grains (e.g., noodles, brown rice, barley), ii) vegetables (e.g., broccolis, cabbages, tomatoes), iii) fruits (e.g., grapes, apples, oranges), iv) beans (e.g., soy, red beans, peas), v) mushrooms (e.g., black fungus, white fungus, straw mushrooms), vi) nuts (e.g., walnuts, chestnuts, almonds), and vii) roots (e.g., taros, potatoes, yams). The type and amount of food is not specified, as long as they are fresh and seasonal and eating up to 80% full in each meal is appropriate. The dietary attitude of Chanyi is to be natural, which is also Chan.

The philosophy of Chanyi in dietary monitoring is in line with the Bencao Gangmu written by Li Shizhen of the Ming Dynasty and the western scientific evidence on vegetarian diet.

http://www.chanwuyi.org/showroom/mod...80557625003249

[Happy Tiger]

Is that anything like Catholic Daoist cooking?

Buddhist vegetarianism stems more from ahimsa than personal health. Buddhism also has the wu hun (五葷) prohibitions, which is a notion that five herbs are too stimulating and should be avoided. Those herbs are chives, garlic, leeks, onions, and shallots. Only some sects observe this. I'm too attached to garlic - more than I was too meat - to give that up personally. Although I will add that there was a SF restaurant that used to observe this and the food was fantastic.

Ha! That's fusion cooking!Thanks for the info

[Happy Tiger]

Maybe this is of interest:




http://www.chanwuyi.org/showroom/mod...80557625003249

Thanks Rett

[Happy Tiger]

Jokes about Orthorexia aside, Sisson is not too bad, from what I've read he does a good job of supporting his conclusions in a reasonable manner, at least for someone who is marketing a product.

I have an immediate revulsion to the romantic thinking that forms the central assumption that evolution reached it's apogee at a specific determinable moment. Evolution is linear, it moves forward. If the central justification behind paleo is evolution but they move backwards to some arbitrary point then the entire premise is based on an irreconcilable contradiction and all conclusions drawn from that point forward are going to be inherently flawed.

I certainly think a meat based diet can be just as healthy as a plant based one, just as I think a diet containing grains can be as healthy as one that doesn't.

Are you familiar with the Quegu shiqi 卻穀食氣? I haven't been able to find much about it in English but it outlines abstaining from grains, at least periodically. Of course it could all just be some opaque, convoluted metaphor.

"Those who eat grain eat what is square, those who eat qi eat what is round. Round is heaven; square is earth."

http://goo.gl/Ud36p

I like alot of what you said. Perhaps our problem with the perception of evolution is the fact we are all in the dimentional illusion of linear growth at all. Life likes to split off into infinite curling tangents of potential, some 'forward' some arching back on themselves helplessly.This process is demonstrated in the mandelbrot set, which when seen graphically describes 'fractals'. This, to me shows the true course of evolution, which isn't linear at all. Conscious thought or more directly,human conscious thought, seems to be an interesting influence on the direction of our tangent, the sucess of which remains to be seen. Perhaps the whole affair of life,evolution, the universe it self, is fueled by consciousness/awareness. This is great potential. I agree, meat can be very healthy from a strictly nutritional point of view but it seems our kung fu brothers and sisters from the past had issue with the ethical implications of the practice, and it's influence on 'intention'. As many live to ripe old ages on meat centered diets as vegan....but who wants to live forever?