Wing Chun and Meditation

**Graham H** · 06-21-2011, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Can't argue with that!

Strawman

**Hendrik** · 06-21-2011, 09:57 AM

For those who is interested in ancient WCK :

Let's look into these in details?

The whole
1, "spiritual",
2, "dan tien" stuff?
3, More overthinking

1, spiritual?

is it spiritual as in religion?

Fact:

For those who learn and practice NeiGong, it is a practical mind and emotion handling training, conditioning, and transformation. nothing to do with religion or new age thinking or philosophy.

2, "dan tien" stuff ?

Fact:

for those who can sink Qi to Dan tien, be able to sink Qi to Dan tien means one increase one's breathing intake 2 to 5 times.

3, overthinking ?

Fact:

Those who could do the above #1 and #2 actually dont think.

it is just a natural phenomenon of Letting Go and Letting the body -mind handle itself.

For, there is no way one could think to make one's breathing intake to increase 4 X or more. also, there is no way one could drop the thinking via thinking.

Speculating what is beyond one's mind capable to know or handle, is the true overthinking. and that is not the case in the ancient training.

**chusauli** · 06-21-2011, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Tom,

You bring up many good points.

As for "blue print", I would say the Chinese culture looks at it more like a memory aid - and the culture is permeated with tools like that. For example, we recite the San Zi Jing to teach Confucianism, and there is a San Zi Jing for medicine. There are poems galore in Chinese for forms, herbs, acupuncture, etc. Forms are a mnemonic device to help you remember things you would have ordinarily forgotten, as there are too many details for a left brain thinking mind to hold at one time. By melding it with the right brain artistic mind, the brain has a chance to store and load it into the body. There is the technical, and there is the art. So the SNT set helps you attempt to balance these out.

Personally, for me, for a long time, it was harder for me to remember Gu Lao WCK, as it had many short sequences, but I could easily remember 3 sets, Jong set and pole and knives sets. But in application, it was easier to express Gu Lao WCK, as it was closer to combat than forms based WCK.

**Hendrik** · 06-21-2011, 11:00 AM

Robert,

Excellent points!

We need to be careful so that we dont throw the water and baby.

For me, in the mean time, I rather keep everything as much as possible. it is better that way then censor it now and find out we throw the baby out later.

The mind-emotion handling, the breathing, the structure, the momentum transportation, the power generation engine, the applications.....etc. lots of stuffs to look into. the more one examine the details the more one could see the art clearly without over simplify or over complicated WCK. over simplify or over complicated will not work properly.

**GlennR** · 06-21-2011, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

This.

The whole "spiritual", "dan tien" stuff? More overthinking and more strawmen to rant against.

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

Im with you on the overthinking bit Tom. Just wants to overcomplicate things for the sake of it.

Ok , forms are for what then?

**WC1277** · 06-21-2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

But here's the rub: the forms do not have any direct bearing on application. The proof? If they did, you would need to mix it up: do the movements in a variety of ways and from a variety of angles - real shadow boxing. Opponents do not come in only one shape and size. Yet, when practicing the forms you do a stylized (for lack of a better word) version and strive to perfect it. Practicing SLT as the minutes tick by has no DIRECT bearing on how hard you can hit.

Some people think of the forms as some sort of nucleus or blueprint of the style, but I do not agree. If that were true, then branches of the style which discard the forms entirely could not exist.

I agree with you to a degree but there is quite a bit in the forms that you'll miss if you don't create a decent drill to compensate for it.

For instance, in SLT a very overlooked detail is the equal tension between each arm so that you develop "hitting/parrying with both sides" even when using just one arm, hence proper structure. Most people when doing the first part of the form just hold their arm in a relaxed state on their side while their other arm is doing tan/fook. You accomplish nothing doing it this way other than knowing what your centerline is, which a 5 year old could learn in 5 min. The correct way is to pull that neutral arm back an equal amount of tension that you're pushing out with your active hand. I don't mean force it or muscle, I mean just equal tension. This will create proper structure and doing SLT everyday this way will make it second nature, which is what you want, right?

Then there's Chum Kiu. This one you could make mostly drills to compensate for but really, why, when it's already all there for you? This one I don't think needs to be done everyday but you should do it as much as possible at least until you perfect your footwork which is really what this form is all about. Well, let me restate that, footwork with a unified body structure. Yes, a lot of it will come naturally eventually, but practicing can help speed up the process.

Biu Jee - probably the least important form of the 3 empty hands IMO. I found that the majority of the stuff found in this one came naturally to me over time during Chi Sao, plus some parts of it are just silly.

Wooden Dummy - I think this one is priceless IMO. If done right and you're entire focus is on perfecting right distancing then this one you should not go without. Too many people cross hands and get hits in, but if you really look at those hits they're useless, why, because of lack of proper distancing.

Two weapon forms - Cool but definitely don't need to do these ones other than once in a blue moon.

So in the end, yeah, in a lot of respects they're useless, but there's certain parts of them that are incredibly important to do over and over and over again. IMO SLT and Wooden Dummy are most important and one should never go without for too long. Chum Kiu is important too but can be learned entirely through drills with a competent teacher.

But at the end of the day, unless you know why you're doing what you're doing or how to do it properly, then, yes, all forms would be useless then

**theo** · 06-21-2011, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hendrik

For anyone who is interested in the old ways of doing WCK.

Technically, according to the TCMA Nei Gong practice, there is no different between race and nationality. It is a human technology.

The following are some general basic for the practice.

A, lower abs breathing is evoked naturally,
meaning effortless and let it resonance without any intention. any using of effort to do deep breathing, prolong breathing, shortern breathing, or unnatural forcing is the wrong way.

most people cant do effortless lower abs without proper training and proper breathing structure.

breathing is the bridge between body and mind, thus one needs a proper body structure and a quiet mind to induce a proper deep breathing.

Lower abs breathing is a transformation and not a using to mind to control activity. any using of mind and effort to control is trouble will cause stagnation.

Thus, it is damaging if one control the breath to be a long as the movements....etc. anything doesnt come naturally is problem and must stop the practice immediately.

one time the movement according to the length of the natural breathing, one dont disturb the breathing is the way.

If Ip Man can do it for 1 hours, he might have done it for only 5 mins the first year of his practice. and 10 mins second years based on his body's transformation. That is the fact of all Neigong practice. Doing what the body cant do it naturally is not proper.

B, one might aware of one's breathing in still meditation.

however, focusing in breathing is not the natural way of practice when it comes to practicing the long SLT or the WCK's three sets.

passed down according to Yik Kam of the red boat era;
The full instruction on how to practice the long SLT set or the 3 sets is as the following 4 kuits.

1, 眼對手 Eyes track your hand
2, 手對心 Hand / movement is in sync with intention
3, 手從心發 Hand / movement begin from the intention
4, 一絲不苟 it has to be a clear and solid coordination

#3 is the famous WCK kuit ---- hand issue from heart.

Thus,
The way of WCK set "meditation" practice is ----
using the aware/attention/ tracking of mind body coordination to sync and flow with movement, while quiet down the mind.

This is the training process of how to achieve " come accept, goes return... using silence to lead action." quiet down the mind is silence.

C, Since this is not physical exercise or cardio exercise or sport training,

in any practice of Neigong including the sets of WCK, one must not feel strain or sweat alots/too much . that is the wrong way. one must not feel tired after the practice, one needs to feel relax and energetic and mindfull after the practice.

the feeling has to be relax, warm, and light weight. the increase plenty generation of saliva is a key to know one is doing it properly. if the mouth is dry the practice is wrong.

one also dont do this before one go to bed to prevent over energetic body mind which stay alert.

D, never do the sets in a windy place, Wind is like an arrow which can penetrate one's body, that cause damage and internal injury. only drink cool drink 30 mins after the practice, to prevent temperature shock and stagnation in the internal organs flow.

E, this is an excellent reference on the posture and breathing and fundamental needed for the three sets. it is simple and natural stuffs. the reasoning is complex but the practice is simple and brainless transformation. otherwise, one cant use it spontaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKI6...eature=related

if you dont have a sifu to show you what is the Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit on opening the YJKYM for SLT means.

1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the spirit in the Equal Shoulder stance

5, 气聚丹田督脉降
Collect Qi in Dan Dien, handing the Du Medirian, while the spine is loosely discending.

The above youtube said it petty much. after you watch the clip carefully, re read the kuits and you know.

and there is no rooting but "levitate". if you do it "rooting" that become Hung gar or White Crane or other Southern art. then later, when you want to do fajing. your practice doesnt fit well and cant work well with the WCK three sets.

so the notion is to gradually condition the body properly accord to the characteristics of the style; the snake engine, the WCK way of fajing will come naturally when one practice the set.

So, again, no secret, all technology. it is simple brainless practice for transformation.

BTW. the utube's clip's is the basic of Goulin Qigong . Goulin Qigong is also Emei 12 Zhuang influence so its fundmental applied to WCK practice when it comes to internal kung or nei kung.

great post hendrik! its a continual process, where we let things unfold naturally.

**Graham H** · 06-22-2011, 02:15 AM

I agree with you to a degree but there is quite a bit in the forms that you'll miss if you don't create a decent drill to compensate for it.

For instance, in SLT a very overlooked detail is the equal tension between each arm so that you develop "hitting/parrying with both sides" even when using just one arm, hence proper structure. Most people when doing the first part of the form just hold their arm in a relaxed state on their side while their other arm is doing tan/fook. You accomplish nothing doing it this way other than knowing what your centerline is, which a 5 year old could learn in 5 min. The correct way is to pull that neutral arm back an equal amount of tension that you're pushing out with your active hand. I don't mean force it or muscle, I mean just equal tension. This will create proper structure and doing SLT everyday this way will make it second nature, which is what you want, right?