Different Styles of Tai Chi FIST at a glance?

[KC Elbows]

Following a tangent here.

As to views on dropping and/or rising, if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.

If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward. Additionally, one may then time dropping under another's center of gravity, whereas, in level footwork, one would always need a lower stance, an impossibility for a tall fighter using level waist theory against an equal but shorter fighter, whose stance, being equal in skill and strength, will always be under the taller fighters.

If one leaves the hips level and, from a forward position like a bow stance, must shift back to a rear weighted position, and the hips are level the whole time, then momentum shifts back in exactly the way that the rear leg is not stable in bearing, like sliding straight back on a chair with wheels, it is not the wheels that make you continue to roll backward at the end, it is the kinetic energy backwards. If, in the same manner(pressing back on the lead leg), one rises in an arc over the top, and then sinks into the rear weighted stance, one transitions into a secure stance without momentum driving further backward.

These are just observations. It is my view that level waist work cannot manage kinetic energy, or harness potential energy where gravity is concerned, and given this, its chances of harnessing more metaphysical energies seems unlikely.

Additionally, the idea that level waist work hides intentions, while interesting as a concept, in practice does not seem as effective to me as constantly changeable waist height. It is easier to lose track of a versatile opponent than a predictable one, and choosing one aspect is, by definition, predictable.

Taoism scoffs at alwayses and nevers for logical reasons, and philosophical taoism scoffs at the supernatural for good reasons. It seems to me more fruitful to be sublime at the ordinary, as a martial artist, a person, and a taoist, than to pursue vain superhumanisms.

[taai gihk yahn]

Why 13? hahahaha! I just love that question!

Yet interestingly enough, you do not answer it; it seems that for a Celestial Master that would be easy (and if you didn't know you could always ask you Taoverse Deity); why is that?

I do know the tung's fast form as well,

Why does that not surprise me?

might be cool to exchange ideas with your original 13 form.

as I am not a fellow Master, I doubt that I would have any information of interest to you to exchange; anyway, it's not "my" form, as unlike the sword form i posted, I didnt create it; but if you really were looking for some insight on it, you could contact my sifu, he would be happy to receive your inquiry

[Scott R. Brown]

D@mn it! I wish I could do something to make you proud of me too!

I am proud of you just the way you are!!!

Following a tangent here.

As to views on dropping and/or rising, if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.

If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward. Additionally, one may then time dropping under another's center of gravity, whereas, in level footwork, one would always need a lower stance, an impossibility for a tall fighter using level waist theory against an equal but shorter fighter, whose stance, being equal in skill and strength, will always be under the taller fighters.

If one leaves the hips level and, from a forward position like a bow stance, must shift back to a rear weighted position, and the hips are level the whole time, then momentum shifts back in exactly the way that the rear leg is not stable in bearing, like sliding straight back on a chair with wheels, it is not the wheels that make you continue to roll backward at the end, it is the kinetic energy backwards. If, in the same manner(pressing back on the lead leg), one rises in an arc over the top, and then sinks into the rear weighted stance, one transitions into a secure stance without momentum driving further backward.

These are just observations. It is my view that level waist work cannot manage kinetic energy, or harness potential energy where gravity is concerned, and given this, its chances of harnessing more metaphysical energies seems unlikely.

Additionally, the idea that level waist work hides intentions, while interesting as a concept, in practice does not seem as effective to me as constantly changeable waist height. It is easier to lose track of a versatile opponent than a predictable one, and choosing one aspect is, by definition, predictable.

Taoism scoffs at alwayses and nevers for logical reasons, and philosophical taoism scoffs at the supernatural for good reasons. It seems to me more fruitful to be sublime at the ordinary, as a martial artist, a person, and a taoist, than to pursue vain superhumanisms.

A very thoughtful post KC!

My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement. This is a characteristic exploited in Aikido and akijujutsu.

When you shift your weight up and back you are still producing momentum and the rise makes it easy for the opponent to continue you on your rise and retreat with nothing more than a slight push up and back!

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

[taai gihk yahn]

if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.

precisely! it ignores the necesarilly sinusoidal nature of"correct" movement;

If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward.

this is actualy how we transition into "brush knee" movement: start mid-level, "scoop" low and back up at the end - sort of a "wave" like movement; also, when we do "cloud hands" (which we call bear-walk), it's the same - there is a shift in level along a vertical axis throughout the movement;

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

[Scott R. Brown]

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

EXACTLY!!!!!!! And well stated! I AM impressed because I haven't found too many people that are aware that they can use the opponents breathing against him!

[sanjuro_ronin]

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

I would have kicked you in the nads while you were listening.

[KC Elbows]

A very thoughtful post KC!

Thanks!

My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement. This is a characteristic exploited in Aikido and akijujutsu.

When you shift your weight up and back you are still producing momentum and the rise makes it easy for the opponent to continue you on your rise and retreat with nothing more than a slight push up and back!

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

Understood. In relation to this, I find it necessary that the hands relate. In the rising, if the opponent seeks to add to that rise, then to sink, my arms should, as my sink occurs, either rise themselves in order to continue the opponent's rise but disconnect it from my center, or in some other way divert it's course or disconnect it from my center.

That said, yes, risk is assumed, but I would suggest that it would be even easier to come forward and rise to someone who does a level waist transition from front to back, because you add to their backward movement and divert it to the rise. I suppose they would need to divert the press, but they still have their own straight back energy to deal with on top of that, and the only way they can get rid of that is linking up to you, so they need to break you from their center AND link up to you, which seems riskier to me. Safer with a glave.

[YouKnowWho]

My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement.

Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

[KC Elbows]

precisely! it ignores the necesarilly sinusoidal nature of"correct" movement;


this is actualy how we transition into "brush knee" movement: start mid-level, "scoop" low and back up at the end - sort of a "wave" like movement; also, when we do "cloud hands" (which we call bear-walk), it's the same - there is a shift in level along a vertical axis throughout the movement;

Agreed. Curious if the method I am familiar with has further similarities.

When going from back to front, at the back, I am high and tucked, as I transition into the low middle area, I am transitioning to, for lack of a better term, an arched back, low stance, and at the front, rounded again. At the points where I am tucked, my waist is highest, at the points where I am arched, my waist is at the lowest. Is this consistent with what you do, sort of a spinal whip, I suppose?

Same for from side to side, as you describe in cloud hands?

[KC Elbows]

I would have kicked you in the nads while you were listening.

He would counter with snake creeps.

[KC Elbows]

Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

I once dated this girl, and I just couldn't get any play. Then, I took her out to lobster. I was afraid she might see the obviousness of my play, but in the moment of all the butter and lobster, she forgot, or perhaps she thought lobster breath might keep me at bay.

Always go to a restaurant that serves mints.

[YouKnowWho]

I once dated this girl, and I just couldn't get any play. Then, I took her out to lobster. I was afraid she might see the obviousness of my play, but in the moment of all the butter and lobster, she forgot, or perhaps she thought lobster breath might keep me at bay.

Always go to a restaurant that serves mints.

I had a guy who always against my proposal. In one meeting I presented 2 plans, plan A and plan B. I like plan A better so I said that I liked plan B instead. He disagreed so we both agreeded that plan A should be the final.

IMO, this is "borrowing force".

[Scott R. Brown]

Understood. In relation to this, I find it necessary that the hands relate. In the rising, if the opponent seeks to add to that rise, then to sink, my arms should, as my sink occurs, either rise themselves in order to continue the opponent's rise but disconnect it from my center, or in some other way divert it's course or disconnect it from my center.

That said, yes, risk is assumed, but I would suggest that it would be even easier to come forward and rise to someone who does a level waist transition from front to back, because you add to their backward movement and divert it to the rise. I suppose they would need to divert the press, but they still have their own straight back energy to deal with on top of that, and the only way they can get rid of that is linking up to you, so they need to break you from their center AND link up to you, which seems riskier to me. Safer with a glave.

In Aikido, or perhaps I should say, in "some" styles of Aikido, this would be accomplished by turning! As you are rising and your opponent entering with an upward push, since you cannot continue rising without losing your balance to the rear, you would turn thus directing your opponents energy past you. Then you would sink to regain your base and follow up behind your opponents forward moving energy!

Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

In the circumstance I was talking about, your opponent would not try to pull you down, but seek to help you continue your backward and rising movement. He would accomplish this by pushing upward and forward (from his perspective) against your chest or chin. As I mentioned, it takes some sensitivity and agility to accomplish this effectively.

[YouKnowWho]

In the circumstance I was talking about, your opponent would not try to pull you down, but seek to help you continue your backward and rising movement. He would accomplish this by pushing upward and forward (from his perspective) against your chest or chin. As I mentioned, it takes some sensitivity and agility to accomplish this effectively.

When you move, your opponent can either move with you or move against you. You should have plan for both cases before you even do it.

In your example, your opponent is smart enough to move with you. You should borrow his "upward" force and "lift him up".