What's wrong with sport fighting?

[hskwarrior]

i was gonna say can i get that in writing...but i guess you beat me to it hahahaha.

[Northwind]

The TMAs are infested with people who want to believe that they can develop fighting skills without fighting.

"Infested" perhaps, like a house infested with termites, and thusly does not mean all houses equal termites and the house model should be demolished by those living in fancy caves.

The bottom like is that the evidence proves that the sport model of training is simply a vast improvement over the traditional approach to MA training.

This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.

...not what we fantasize, not our speculation, etc. but from the evidence.

And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.

And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.

Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

[Kansuke]

3. Several people have commented on "dirty fighting", and there is an unmistakable social issue with 'fighting dirty' in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.
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Not sure what you meant by this, exactly.

[Dragonzbane76]

This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.

sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the "street" not much jump at all. Plus in place you already have the foundation for resistance tested. There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powers."

And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.

the general concensus is what is shared.

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.

Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts. If you don't think so lets put some "master" in the ring with lets say... um... George Saint P. and don't site the "realz deadly" argument on this one, the first UFC's had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.

[Laukarbo]

I also teach tcma,hung kuen in particular but we also join sanda tournaments..
I see it like that:we (me or my students) do not claim anything..hung kuen has techniques thats useless for sportfighting but usefull for selfdefence (not in a too deadly sense) .. coming in a situation where u have to defend yourself doesnt happen on a daily basis of course also depents where you hang about..if you come into a combat situation most likely the person you fight with is not an mma guy or similar sport fighter..most sport fighter i know arent thugs sort of peeps..so most likely u fight off a drunk etc.
Im in germany,most of the cma schools here also join sanda,many include even ground fighting (having seminars at their schools etc,where they invite bjj people etc) also none of them claim any too deadly for the streets stuff..as a matter of fact I have been living on the philippines and hongkong for almost 6 years and met many cma teachers there and most of them were realistic about their abilities...fact remains u cant learn fighting without fighting..how far u go is up to you....as for videos;I know people I wish they had videos up so people could see cma is better than it appears on the net..but what is the net? Most people from cma fields I know dont care about the net,people here on the board is just a small percentage and doesnt reflect the general state of cma...Im back in germany since a year and already joined sanda fights we lost some we won some nothing special,I have a russian wrestler come to my school on a regular basis..thats for the sanda guys but also for whoever is interested...I think Im just one of many,many more than people may think...oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class....just giving some thoughts from my side of things

[Dragonzbane76]

oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class....just giving some thoughts from my side of things

I have nothing against forms if what you are promoting is what you mentioned, In my earlier years I learned 100's of forms, I still do some here and there that I find benifical in the departments you listed. When someone starts spouting that forms are fighting argument is when I raise the red flag.

funny that you list the last 15 minutes of class as forms time, my early years was the same, you learned maybe 3-4 moves and then practiced on your own until next class and if it was good enough you were taught 3-4 more movements.

[Sardinkahnikov]

This sport vs "traditional" thing is nonsense. It seems that people use the expression "TMA" to refer to hippie tree hugging form training. In martial arts, tradition = fighting, because that's what the creators of the arts had in mind. The non-fighting, no-effort, no-sweat no-blood kind of training is a deturpation - which is not intrinsically bad, but it's not what you should do if you want to practice anything worthy of the "martial" adjective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is nothing wrong with the sport mode of fighting, it build all the things needed for being a good fighter: Speed, stamina, strength, skill, intent and the fighter learns very quickly what works and what doesn't.
It is true that it has rules and limitations, but what that truly means is that if you can't win under those conditions, when there is some "level field", how do you hope to win when there are NONE ??

[Northwind]

sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the "street" not much jump at all.

Not much jump? No ref., no stand-off, no timed match, no prior knowledge of opponent...I'd say that there is quite a jump.
Applications learning is different from applications practice, which is different from 2-man drills, which is different from 2-man forms, which is different from sparring, which is different from fighting, which is different from sport combat, which is different from military tactics on the battlefield, which is different from personal self-defense, which is different from debating, which is different from...

There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powers."

I would agree. But interestingly enough I don't think we have anyone on these forums like that ("pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powes")...

fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts.

General sweeping stereotypical statement again. Depends on the context of what a "fighter" is and what a "fight" is. See my "different from" statements above.

If you don't think so lets put some "master" in the ring with lets say... um... George Saint P.

"Let's" = let us. I would think that if said "master" were interested in doing so then he/she would. That's not up to you nor me. And again, context of words.

and don't site the "realz deadly" argument on this one, the first UFC's had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.

I've never "site" (cite)d anything of the sort, so the "on this one" reference is moot.

[t_niehoff]

"
This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.

If you take your head out of the sand, you'll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist -- the sport fighter wins easily. What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can't fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.

The sport model develops skill; that's why we see world class athletes.

And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.

The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.

Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

This is a very easy thing to prove -- just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?

If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can't we see any evidence of that?

Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can't provide any evidence?

[Northwind]

If you take your head out of the sand, you'll also see the evidence of what happens whenever a sport fighter fights with a TCMAist -- the sport fighter wins easily.

Hmmm... A personal insult; nice. My head's never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the "evidence" of what you're referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.

What we see time and time again is that that TCMAists can't fight worth sh1t. Even when they fight with each other it is sh1t.

Actually "we" have not seen that at all. It's merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don't think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.

The sport model develops skill; that's why we see world class athletes.

Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1057617]
The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.
[QUOTE]

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false.

This is a very easy thing to prove -- just go take your video camera to a MMA or MT gym and spar, and show the world that you or some other TCMA-trained person can easily handle yourself. Why is it we have never seen that?

I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don't think I am alone in my interests. That's why you have never seen that.

If TCMAs develop good levels of realistic fighting skills, then they should be able to use those skills on demand, in any situation. Why can't we see any evidence of that?

See above.

Or, is it like Bigfoot, you are sure it exists but just can't provide any evidence?

lol not even going to justify your attempts at wit here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false

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So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?

Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.
I won't say that "whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins", but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).

[Northwind]

.
So have many others, from both sport and non-sport, from both TCMA and modern sport systems.
Not really relevant to the discussion is it?

I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of "ALL TCMA" is this or that and it's offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.

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Fact is, while T maybe voicing his views in his typical unique manner, his points still stand.

And so do mine.

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I won't say that "whenever a sport fighter fights a TMA he wins", but I will say that the majority of the times that is the case, rules or NO rules ( and there have been enough of both).

Again - context of the term "fight".

[t_niehoff]

Hmmm... A personal insult; nice. My head's never been in the sand - perhaps your eyesight needs checking. I have seen the "evidence" of what you're referring to. Ring matches where sport fighters win. I believe I said earlier on that they dominate that arena.

I didn't make any personal insult. But all anyone needs to do is look around -- we can see what sport fighters can do. And we can see what happens whenever sport fighters fight with TCMAists. And we never see any evidence of TCMAists demonstrating any significant fighting skills. What more do you need?

Actually "we" have not seen that at all. It's merely you making insulting remarks about an entire group of tens of thousands of people on a forum that caters to that very group. Personally I don't think you have the magic wand to make that stereotypical generalization into fact. Keep working though.

Sure we have. Why don't you point me to some evidence of TCMAists that have good levels of fighting skills so that we can all see them for ourselves?

I can't help it if you or they find the truth insulting.

We know what it takes to develop good fighting skills -- and TCMAists aren't doing the training that it takes.

Yes true. Key words being sport + athletes and skill.

Fighting is an athletic activity (even if you don't want to believe it -- and that's one of the many problems with the TCMA perspective.

The fantasy all TCMAists -- who haven't adopted the sport model of training -- share is that they can develop realistic fighting skills through unrealistic training.

Funny that. How is it that I have not turned my tcma into a sport and yet defeated armed & unarmed attackers both here & overseas several times? And oddly enough I don't think I am the only TCMA-ist to say that. Even if I were - it would make your "ALL" statement false.

Yeah, and I have killed hundreds of ninja.

Look, if you have fighting skills, then they will work on the str33t or the gym or a ring. Does your punch only work when no one is watching? If you have fighting skill, then it is the simplest thing to show: all you need to do is go to a good MMA or MT gym with your video camera. Be the first! Show the world what TCMAs can really do. No one can argue with evidence that we can see.

But we all know that you won't do that. Because you would get your ass spanked by the white belt level MMA fighters.

I just proved it above. Why would I do as you ask? I am not interested in challenge matches, sport fighting nor brawling. And I don't think I am alone in my interests. That's why you have never seen that.

ROFLOL! Yeah, that's it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it is relevant. Too many ppl use stereotypical statements of "ALL TCMA" is this or that and it's offensive. Just making a simple to point out how that logic is flawed.

And so do mine.

Again - context of the term "fight".

No, saying that you can do something that others can do to is not relevant to a thread about "what is wrong with sport fighting".
If NO sport fighters could do what you do, THEN it would be relevant.

"fight", is not a subjective term-
–noun
1.
a battle or combat.
2.
any contest or struggle: a fight for recovery from an illness.
3.
an angry argument or disagreement: Whenever we discuss politics, we end up in a fight.
4.
Boxing . a bout or contest.
5.
a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.
6.
ability, will, or inclination to fight: There was no fight left in him.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to engage in battle or in single combat; attempt to defend oneself against or to subdue, defeat, or destroy an adversary.
8.
to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something: He fought bravely against despair.
–verb (used with object)
9.
to contend with in battle or combat; war against: England fought Germany.
10.
to contend with or against in any manner: to fight despair; to fight the passage of a bill.
11.
to carry on (a battle, duel, etc.).
12.
to maintain (a cause, quarrel, etc.) by fighting or contending.
13.
to make (one's way) by fighting or striving.
14.
to cause or set (a boxer, animal, etc.) to fight.
15.
to manage or maneuver (troops, ships, guns, planes, etc.) in battle.



One guy trying to beat another is a fight, period.

If sport fighting isn't fighting then it should be all the more easier for a "real" fighter to be a "sport fighter".