What's wrong with sport fighting?

[Yum Cha]

<respect>

OK, we have a general agreement that training like you fight, or as close as possible, is better than not. This seems to be the crux of the MMA argument, as articulated most succinctly by Knife fighter, who will elaborate I'm sure if he feels necessary.

We have also argued that high intensity combat training is demanding, and is a significant, but limited part, to a lifetime in Martial arts. You can't claim to be a top level MA without the blood to show for it. Yours or theirs is practically irrelevant.

So, this isn't about disrespect or dissent on sport fighting, its mainly a question for TCMA people, to examine how to get results with alternative training as well, to complete our picture and to lose the essential skills of your style.

</respect>


1. To my mind, sport fighting is a lot like Chi Sau, or Push hands. It limits your expression of your complete skills in favour of a very engaging sub set that becomes a game. To focus on any one element of your training for too long takes away from other skills, and becomes the skill itself. This is it for lots of guys, and fair enough, no problems with that. I prefer that kind of person to the split personality that claims TCMA but fights without TCMA.

2. Likewise, it takes you to a common denominator. Once you learn sport fighting, you practice it towards the skills of other sport fighters, and this can diminish some of your unconventional techniques, that have to be trained nevertheless, even though you can't use them in that format.

3. Several people have commented on "dirty fighting", and there is an unmistakable social issue with 'fighting dirty' in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.

4. I don't think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I think you have to sport fight as part of your MA career, preferably earlier than later, because once you have those foundation skills, you can sharpen them with TCMA, given you have access to some substance. Big if, I know.

That's my 'one man's opinion'. And basically, you have to consider that TCMA is about more than just fighting to see my point of view.

[hskwarrior]

Nothing is wrong with sport fighting at all. IMHO it has its place its time to shine is NOW. TCMA has been time tested and has survived centuries amidst all types of fighters from Kung Fu to Foreign boxers choosing to pick on the smaller men of asia to prove their point. In the end, some gung fu people came out on top while others fell to the wayside.

IMHO...it all started with the original UFC where the idea that Kung Fu can beat BJJ. Take that kung fu vs BJJ video Knifefighter is always posting. It took me some time to realize where the problem was because on a general level TCMA has proven to be effective in the past be it on the street or the ring. however, it was minus the BJJ and MMA at the time. So, where TCMA went wrong trying to fight BJJ people is that BJJ or any type of JuJitsu had nothing to do with TCMA. It's like apples and oranges. and of course Kung Fu came out on the losing end.

For most of TCMA BJJ was a losing battle. PERIOD. the fight on the ground while TCMA's focus was on STAND UP. I feel if BJJ would have fought TCMA on TCMA's level it would have been an interesting turn out.

The evolution of the UFC was MMA (IMHO) and the professional fighter title. regardless to what level, MMA woke TCMA up in a major way. at least for some of us it has. It's made us pay attention to a weakness....effective ground game. I think if ANY style of TCMA were to place the same emphasis on training as MMA does it wouldn't have the bad rap that it does.

Sports fighting is good for the FIGHTER in you. But in some cases it limits you to using certain techniques (some may say YEAH THE MOST EFFECTIVE). I'm not a fan of "FANCY" techniques at all. And the CLF lineage i belong to has always focused on fighting aggressive people. we have always modified our stuff if we thought it had no effectiveness. We also shaped it to individuals since TCMA is an individual endeavor.

Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball....baseball....basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being "PROFESSIONAL" is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day. TCMA of old i'm sure was like that. I mean what else could you do out in the mountains with no tv, dance clubs, ball games or MMA matches to watch?

The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

[hskwarrior]

What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat? So many people say TCMA looks like KICKBOXING. However, TCMA people have always stood by the claim of "if you put gloves on me you take away from my style". Yes, mma gloves today have the open fingers but still limit what we do with our hands. So to compensate TCMA during certain EVENTS used the most basic of techniques which tend to be very similar to others systems. theres only so many ways to punch kick and block.

But, honestly, is TCMA people supposed to fight like what you see in the movies? classical gung fu? has anyone ever seen a real fight looking like classical gung fu? Isn't FIGHTING supposed to be as natural as possible? with gloves on can you see a phoenix eye fist? A tiger claw? a panther fist? the only things you see on a gloved hand is A hand with a round glove on it.

i'm tired of MMA type of people or armchair warriors who think they have the answer cause they spend more time in their chairs watching you move pause play pause play pause play...move for move then analyze what they would have done as an answer.

4. I don't think sport fighting is the ultimate measure of skill, because I consider MA skill to both precede conflict and to follow after it, a comprehensive strategy for self defence. Thus, sport fighting is simply one more approximate expression of your skills, simulating an alternative situation.

I agree with the above. the true test whether your martial arts works or not is if you effectively defend yourself from danger. On the street you have to worry about someone stabbing you, hitting you with a bat or what not, or just physically trying to attack you with his hands or feet. People who've fought in the streets prior to learning martial arts are more prone to ground fighting than a TCMA guy or girl would be. i've gone to the ground in many of my fights in the past. and i've effectively used the sprawl without ever learning wrestling, you just learn out of experience. in fact one of the things i've done a prefer is the guillatine, i never knew it was called that until MMA.

Sports fighing has its place, its really just for the money and entertainment purposes. its effective yes...but to be a fighter does it necessarily mean the onyl good fighters in martial arts are sports fighters? NO

[YouKnowWho]

What is TCMA supposed to look like in combat?

CMA = "sport fight" + "combat fight".

We all know what CMA "sport fight" suppose to look like. But we don't know what CMA "combat fight" suppose to look like.

In Longfist system, there are moves that you grab

- a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent's face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up.
- on your opponent's shirt, raise your leg, pull out a dagger from your boot, and stab that dagger into your opponent's heart (some people use this move as a hammer fist on the head).

That's pretty much what "combat fight" suppose to look like. Same moves as used in sport but with different application.

Weapon like this is used to kill and not used to dance with.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/20/schook.jpg

[hskwarrior]

In Longfist system, there is a move that you garb a handful of sand from the ground, throw at your opponent's face (some people use this move as a groin attack), and then jump in and beat your opponent up. That's pretty much what "combat fight" suppose to look like.

not the technique, but the mindset is the same for CLF. CLF's flow allows us to have an effective answer in any situation (aside from ground fighting).

[YouKnowWho]

The SC system also has different mindset between "sport" and "combat". In "sport", your goal is to take your opponent down. In "combat", your goal is to crack your oppopent's skull.

[Lee Chiang Po]

MMA being sport fighting is just that. A sport. In any sport, in order for it to be sanctioned, it has to have strengent rules. Only certain techniques are allowed. No matter what background of fighting you might have, your trained skills are not allowed, with the exception of those that are allowed by rule in the sport. This pretty much makes everyone on a level playing field. No amount of training in any form of martial art is going to make a difference simply because it can not be used. And because it is a sport and heavily governed by rules, and of course a referee to save your a$$, it is not even close to real fighting. Real fighting has no rules, and anyone that claims dirty fighting is a fool. Your only aim is to kill or seriously injure an oponent in a real fight. There is no submitting an opponent.

[Eric Olson]

The really funny thing to me is that the MMA crowd likes to diss on CMAs and act like wrestling never existed in China, likes it's a new thing and CMAs didn't develop with wrestling in the mix.

If you look at Hung Gar, for example, the stance work looks to me like a direct strategic response to dealing with grapplers. Drop your center of gravity so low that you can't be thrown.

Anyways, it's never black and white....and I agree with the MMA crowd that if you are highly skilled you should be able to do SOMETHING with headgear and gloves on. Most TMAs have some punches and kicks in there and you can pull those out and put them to use in a sporting venue.

That being said, some techniques you have to look to the traditional training methods to develop. For example, if you look at the development of push hands, it wasn't about training "energy" or some esoteric namsy-pamsy but a way to train locks without hurting or getting hurt.

EO

[Knifefighter]

Sports fighting is just that though. Martial Art fighting on a professional level. just like foot ball....baseball....basket ball. Some people like to play as a past time and are pretty good at it doing so over time. being "PROFESSIONAL" is another LEVEL of the game meant for those who can afford to spend their lives training all day.

Plenty of people hold down day jobs and compete at the recreational level in most sports.

The only thing i think is wrong with sports fighting is RULES.

And where and how, exactly, are you training without RULES?

This looks to be pretty rules based to me- much more than any MMA match you are going to see:

http://hlk415.webs.com/apps/videos/v...kwoon-sparring

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah...they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq'd. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.

[Knifefighter]

oh yeah...they were training for a Point sparring type of tournament with no head shots. they trained the entire time on body shots. they sparred most times with 12 3 minute rounds. but yeah, there were rules in this fighting. and we still got dq'd. which turned out to be a complete waist of time.

OK, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?

[hskwarrior]

ok, so, again, it does beg the question. Where is it you guys are training without rules?

secret -classified - on a need to know basis

LMAO....are you ALWAYS on DEBUNK MODE? LMAO.......ancient chinese secret

[Kansuke]

3. Several people have commented on "dirty fighting", and there is an unmistakable social issue with 'fighting dirty' in the Sport community. Not a vulnerability exactly, but a social stigma. That in itself speaks volumes to my mind.
.

Not sure what you meant by this, exactly.

[Dragonzbane76]

This "evidence" IS sport fighting. Sport fighting will do awesome in sport fighting competitions. Period.

sorry not much of a jump from the ring to the "street" not much jump at all. Plus in place you already have the foundation for resistance tested. There is no Period. only period you have is pajama wearing fools trying to show case special "powers."

And so since maybe you've seen a kung fu flick before, then all TCMA-ers believe we can skim over tree-tops? What fantasies do all TCMA's share? lol My evidence is in me.

the general concensus is what is shared.

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
And the evidence is that people who are sport-trained develop USABLE and DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills more quickly and to much, much higher levels than those who use TMA-type training.

Hmmm... Sorry chief but you're wrong here too.

fighters develop quicker, usable, fighting skills in a much shorter time than traditional arts. If you don't think so lets put some "master" in the ring with lets say... um... George Saint P. and don't site the "realz deadly" argument on this one, the first UFC's had barely any rules in place and we could look at Vale Tudo if you wanna go down that road.

[Laukarbo]

I also teach tcma,hung kuen in particular but we also join sanda tournaments..
I see it like that:we (me or my students) do not claim anything..hung kuen has techniques thats useless for sportfighting but usefull for selfdefence (not in a too deadly sense) .. coming in a situation where u have to defend yourself doesnt happen on a daily basis of course also depents where you hang about..if you come into a combat situation most likely the person you fight with is not an mma guy or similar sport fighter..most sport fighter i know arent thugs sort of peeps..so most likely u fight off a drunk etc.
Im in germany,most of the cma schools here also join sanda,many include even ground fighting (having seminars at their schools etc,where they invite bjj people etc) also none of them claim any too deadly for the streets stuff..as a matter of fact I have been living on the philippines and hongkong for almost 6 years and met many cma teachers there and most of them were realistic about their abilities...fact remains u cant learn fighting without fighting..how far u go is up to you....as for videos;I know people I wish they had videos up so people could see cma is better than it appears on the net..but what is the net? Most people from cma fields I know dont care about the net,people here on the board is just a small percentage and doesnt reflect the general state of cma...Im back in germany since a year and already joined sanda fights we lost some we won some nothing special,I have a russian wrestler come to my school on a regular basis..thats for the sanda guys but also for whoever is interested...I think Im just one of many,many more than people may think...oh yeah we also train forms,I dont know about other styles but our forms make strong and healthy..not teach fighting but very good for health,breathing,stammina,strength etc..forms are only trained in the last 15 minutes of each class....just giving some thoughts from my side of things