Interview with YKS practitioner Dr. Cheung Yung

[hunt1]

The question is for you T or anyone else. You just stated you see the platform in YKS/SN/YM but not before.

I ask you to explain then why is the rolling clearly shown in the Chum Kui form Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?

It is far more likeley the Luk Sao platform was introduced in some fashion at NG Chung So's school an then others went on to play with it /add to it etc. There are several 3rd party accounts of all the involved Yip,YKS, YC being at ,training learning swapping at Ng school which was at Yui Choi's Opium House.

[t_niehoff]

The question is for you T or anyone else. You just stated you see the platform in YKS/SN/YM but not before.

I ask you to explain then why is the rolling clearly shown in the Chum Kui form Yui Choi learned from NG Chung So?

It is far more likeley the Luk Sao platform was introduced in some fashion at NG Chung So's school an then others went on to play with it /add to it etc. There are several 3rd party accounts of all the involved Yip,YKS, YC being at ,training learning swapping at Ng school which was at Yui Choi's Opium House.

There is no doubt that there was much sharing in the Foshan WCK community.

Many people, like Yui Choi, in lots of lineages have adopted the luk sao platform into their curriculum (without attribution). As you point out, Ng Chung So was a contemporary to YKS and Sum Nung, and was close to Yip. YKS was in the same generation as Leung Jan, and so would have been Ng's senior -- and in Chinese culture would not have "learned" from Ng, it would be the other way round.

And, as I said, fortunately we had Sum -- who was there -- and told us how it was developed.

[LSWCTN1]

There is no doubt that there was much sharing in the Foshan WCK community.

Many people, like Yui Choi, in lots of lineages have adopted the luk sao platform into their curriculum (without attribution). As you point out, Ng Chung So was a contemporary to YKS and Sum Nung, and was close to Yip. YKS was in the same generation as Leung Jan, and so would have been Ng's senior -- and in Chinese culture would not have "learned" from Ng, it would be the other way round.

And, as I said, fortunately we had Sum -- who was there -- and told us how it was developed.

interesting post, but YKS was at the same generation as Chan Wah Shun, not Leung Jan

[hunt1]

T I am a bit surprised by your belief that what Sum said is true and factual.

On what evidence should we accept Sum's word as fact? Being old and being good at WC are hardly grounds to believe in some ones infallible accuracy?

Lun Kai and Kwok Fu said YKS was always trying to steal Yips dummy techniques. Aren't they just as believable as Sum? Even more so since you have 2 people telling the same story instead of one?

Leung Ting in his book printed some of Sums written account of Yip Man. It was to say the least at great odd's with Yips History even according to 3rd parties Yui Kay, who was also there and Lee Man who was there too?

You still did not explain the rolling as part of the Chum Kui of Ng. Why does is it there in a form predating YKS/SM when you say YKS/SM invented it?

On what basis do you accept Sum Nung word as gospel and while there is at least as much if not more evidence pointing in other directions?

[hunt1]

Also you and anyone else that says YKS and Leung Jan were the same generation at the least wrong and at worst guilty of trying to reinvent history.

Depending on dates of death YKS was no more than 10 to 15 years old when Leung Jan died. Other dates of Leung Jans death would place YKS at just a couple of years old if he was born before LS death at all. In no way were they the same generation.

[CFT]

Age doesn't necessarily equate to generations in a martial arts family sense.

If we start from the Red Boat, the likes of Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching are the same generation, assuming their teachers are the same gen. (Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam). So that would put Chan Wah Sun and YKS in the same gen. Hence Yip Man and Sum Nung would be the same gen.

Yet Lun Gai, Kwok Fu were similar in age to Sum Nung ...

Everyone agrees that there was a lot of informal sharing, so who can really say who started what practice and with whom?

[LoneTiger108]

Luk sao is the chi sao platform that uses tan/fook, bong/fook. The older branches of WCK, like Gu Lao and Yik Kam, etc., use the huen platform (that YKS also retains) or a touch-and-go platform (like Pan Nam). I am not saying that the luk sao didn't exist prior to YKS (it is a part of the Gu Lao 40 point curriculum) but just not as a chi sao platform.

Okay, I can see your point but have to ask; why do you think the looksau is 'part of' the chisau 'platform'?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you say again, but personally I would refer to both as being part of an 'interactive' platform as they both develop different attributes.

FWIW the tan/fook & bong/fook combination is not all that is contained in, what I know as, looksau. I asked for postures (names of two-handed postures) not the term of each hands seed. But this does help me understand where you're coming from I think. It's all good, just very different from what I know.

[t_niehoff]

interesting post, but YKS was at the same generation as Chan Wah Shun, not Leung Jan

Yes, that's right. Just a lapse.

[LoneTiger108]

Age doesn't necessarily equate to generations in a martial arts family sense.

I know this only too well

It's up to the present generations to put all this stuff behind them though. I'm obviously a bit advocate of Mo Duk and Codes of Cinduct because that's the way I was taught. The hierarchy of elders etc.

And elder doesn't automatically know more or has trained more than a younger brother either from my experience. It's all about timing, and committment imho. Sifus tend to change what and how they teach over the years

[t_niehoff]

T I am a bit surprised by your belief that what Sum said is true and factual.

On what evidence should we accept Sum's word as fact? Being old and being good at WC are hardly grounds to believe in some ones infallible accuracy?

That he was meticulous in attributing the various parts of his curriculum to where they came from (as I indicated).

Try to put this all in context. YKS was in his time, one of if not the most senior WCK practitioner in Foshan. Yip was one of the most junior WCK practitioners in Foshan (the last of CWS's students). YKS was, like Leung Jan, a well-known and respected WCK fighter.

Lun Kai and Kwok Fu said YKS was always trying to steal Yips dummy techniques. Aren't they just as believable as Sum? Even more so since you have 2 people telling the same story instead of one?

Where is this reported?

And stories like that really make no sense. The very notion of stealing someone's dummy techniques is silly and when you see the YKS dummy you will see that it has the same as Yip's dummy plus "more".

Leung Ting in his book printed some of Sums written account of Yip Man. It was to say the least at great odd's with Yips History even according to 3rd parties Yui Kay, who was also there and Lee Man who was there too?

Leung Ting's book ("Roots") is mostly nonsense and propaganda.

You still did not explain the rolling as part of the Chum Kui of Ng. Why does is it there in a form predating YKS/SM when you say YKS/SM invented it?

The "rolling" has always been a part of WCK (it occurs as a transition out of the huen sao platform naturally). It just wasn't a chi sao platform until YKS/SN created it.

And, btw, how do we know when that was incorporated into Ng's chum kiu? This was not a part of CWS's chum kiu after all.

On what basis do you accept Sum Nung word as gospel and while there is at least as much if not more evidence pointing in other directions?

Much of WCK "history" has been rewritten by Yip supporters, like Lee Man and Leung Ting, to present Yip in a much greater role than was the case.

My reasoning is as follows:

1) There is no good evidence of the luk sao platform of chi sao being used in any branch/lineage prior to the YKS/SN/YM collaboration. All the older branches of WCK, including Gu Lao which descends from Leung Jan, use either the huen sao platform or like Pan Nam -- who was taught by Yip's own senior, Lai -- the touch-and-go (not luk sao).

2) So we can say that luk sao as a chi sao platform began in the YKS/SN/YM era.

3) Luk sao as a chi sao platform is subsequently adopted into many other lineages/branches. Most often this isn't attributed. Many think it has always been a part.

4) Sum, who is very meticulous (and seemingly honest) in recording what aspects of his "system" come from where/who (Cheung Bo, Fok Bo Cheun, Fung Siu Ching) including his own modifications (like adding the "bob" in the CK form), and we know was there when this development occurred, says it was YKS that developed it.

5) In that culture, a WCK senior would not have learned from a junior, or taken drills/exercises developed by a junior. That would have been scandalous, a loss of face.

6) Yip as a junior and not having finished his training under CWS, and having continued with Ng, would have likely sought other senior and well-respected WCK practitioners to learn from. YKS was YM's "uncle" and one of the best-known, WCK fighters in Foshan (while YM was still a young pup).

7) In the culture of the time, YM's sifu in name would always be CWS (who "opened his fist") and his sihings. To publicly acknowledge that he learned from someone outside his family (YKS) would be considered inappropriate.

And I'd add that the YKS/SN curriculum is much more expansive and explicit that the YM curriculum, it much more organized, has retained more of the traditional elements (like keywords, the faat mun, etc.), has a whole training series that YM's curriculum lacks, etc. In other words, if you compare the YM and YKS curriculum side-by-side, it is clear that the YKS curriculum has much more explicit info and is better put together.

[chusauli]

Terence,

You are starting to sound like a WCK man and not a MMA guy! LOL!

Just kidding!

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

You are starting to sound like a WCK man and not a MMA guy! LOL!

Just kidding!

I don't think the two should be mutually exclusive!

[Hendrik]

You know,

Since we know the WCK uniqueness signature. We could rely on that instead of he says she says.

Could some one post a YKS pic in YJKYM or Sung Num Pic in YJKYM?
I will analysis the stuffs for you and you could test it out yourself at home and let physics and your mind and body tell you what it is.

Really, you dont need to get to China and this generation and that generation, Check the DNA and you know the answer. not to mention, those in the past generation and from China might not know what we know, no BS but we got to be scientific on these stuffs.


If one knows how to get the reference point as I have mention before, one could know what is the others doing in reference to the reference point.


once one know what is it reference to the reference point one could check the power generation signature and lock into what is it.

[Pacman]

All the history is great, I love it but what is important is where we are now and how we make ourselves better.

Just because xyz created something, does not mean it can't be improved. Hmm Cars, Planes, trains, computers...do we look at the orignal creators and say my car is the best as I am Henry Ford's great grandson?

I have alway thought that YKS and Ip Man communicated a lot on wing chun and developed the Poon Sau platfoam. This does not mean they had all the answers, just a great idea that we can be thankful for. Individuals have developed chi sau since Ip Man's time I think in deifferent directions.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

ur right. it doesnt matter if someone in your lineage was awesome. it only matters what you can do.

i posted this video to continue a discussion in which people talked about WC's somewhat dubious history. you can read in my initial post i didnt put down or praise anyone.

[Pacman]

The bottom line is that pacman is doing what so many have done -- and continue to do -- SELECTIVELY choosing to listen to those things that portray his own little branch/lineage as having "the real wing chun" and other branches/lineages as being in various ways inferior. And you can always find some brainwashed stooge like Cheung Yung who you can point to as as "authority" for that view.

not really. i have responded to all points you have brought up. as usual you dodge discussion, do not rebut, and repeat things like a broken record.

i am not pushing any lineage. i dont teach. i dont make money off what people learn.

also, i have never stated that YKS is the "real wing chun". i have only pointed out the differences, showing how WC has changed through Fung Siu Ching and YKS.

If anything, i am pointing out that Fung Siu Ching, YKS, and SN's WC is the most MODERN--the opposite of what people usually say is real, original.