The basic WCK punch

[t_niehoff]

We all know the basic WCK punch, the jik chung choi, right? We do it in the beginning of every empty hand set, we do it in our drills/exercises.

So, why do we learn and practice doing the jik chung choi on the centerline (and from our center line)? Why is this the most basic punch, some might say the foundation, of WCK?

(And I won't pull a Henrik, I will give my answer).

[k gledhill]

We all know the basic WCK punch, the jik chung choi, right? We do it in the beginning of every empty hand set, we do it in our drills/exercises.

So, why do we learn and practice doing the jik chung choi on the centerline (and from our center line)? Why is this the most basic punch, some might say the foundation, of WCK?

(And I won't pull a Henrik, I will give my answer).

not 'on', across the centerline....wrists x, elbows touch it ...very important.
like the preceeding x'ing of the wrists on the line and back.

[t_niehoff]

OK, so what are your answers to my questions?

[Graham H]

We all know the basic WCK punch, the jik chung choi, right? We do it in the beginning of every empty hand set, we do it in our drills/exercises.

So, why do we learn and practice doing the jik chung choi on the centerline (and from our center line)? Why is this the most basic punch, some might say the foundation, of WCK?

(And I won't pull a Henrik, I will give my answer).

The VT straight punch allows us to attack and defend simultaneously whilst taking most direct path to the target. The punch must intersect the centerline in order to do this so that Wu Sau can become the next punch and if any of your opponents limbs are in the way the punch opens the way for the next strike by using the elbow to deflect. This is the basic concepts of Tan Sau and Fook Sau. It is the not the fist that is on the center but rather the elbow.
With the fist vertical and the elbow in front of the body it forms a line to the ground so we can punch using body structure. This is vital for developing any real power whilst fighting close.

This idea is not clear until Chum Kiu as Siu Lim Tau teaches us position, the correct path of the elbow for the punch increases strength in the stance.

GH

Terrence you're asking a question that can get lost in translation from the written word. I can show this in 30 seconds but argue about it for 30 years on the internet.

[t_niehoff]

The VT straight punch allows us to attack and defend simultaneously whilst taking most direct path to the target. The punch must intersect the centerline in order to do this so that Wu Sau can become the next punch and if any of your opponents limbs are in the way the punch opens the way for the next strike by using the elbow to deflect. This is the basic concepts of Tan Sau and Fook Sau. It is the not the fist that is on the center but rather the elbow.
With the fist vertical and the elbow in front of the body it forms a line to the ground so we can punch using body structure. This is vital for developing any real power whilst fighting close.

This idea is not clear until Chum Kiu as Siu Lim Tau teaches us position, the correct path of the elbow for the punch increases strength in the stance.

GH

How does the "VT straight punch allows us to attack and defend simultaneously" if your opponent isn't striking on the exact same line as your punch (can't he go underneath it, over it, around it, etc.)? Your arm is only in one line, doesn't the opponent have a multitude of others to use? Can you use your "VT straight punch" to stop a hook, an overhand, a swing?

And, can't I also attack and defend simultaneously without using a straight (centerline) punch?

[chusauli]

Why isn't it clear until Chum Kiu?

Or is that just useless dogma of an adherent?

[Graham H]

Why isn't it clear until Chum Kiu?

Or is that just useless dogma of an adherent?

Simply because we don't move or pivot in SLT Robert. Its as simple as that unless you can fight whilst being welded to the ground in which case can I come to your school??

GH

[Graham H]

This idea of the punches crossing is presented at the end of SLT just before Chum Kiu. Unfortunately most people think these actions are to escape from wrist grabs. Boooooooooo!!!

[chusauli]

Simply because we don't move or pivot in SLT Robert. Its as simple as that unless you can fight whilst being welded to the ground in which case can I come to your school??

GH

If you'd like to visit sometime, I would welcome you.

I am asking because from my POV, one doesn't need to shift for power, and you already learn stepping before you learn Chum Kiu.

Loose steps like Bik Ma, Biu Ma, Sam Gwok Ma, etc. are already taught in an early curriculum. Combine that with striking, and you already have a basis for a good punch.

So, do you still need Chum Kiu?

[Graham H]

How does the "VT straight punch allows us to attack and defend simultaneously" if your opponent isn't striking on the exact same line as your punch (can't he go underneath it, over it, around it, etc.)? Your arm is only in one line, doesn't the opponent have a multitude of others to use? Can you use your "VT straight punch" to stop a hook, an overhand, a swing?

And, can't I also attack and defend simultaneously without using a straight (centerline) punch?

By using the elbow to cut into the inside for the punch (fook Sau) or spread out from the center to the outside (tan sau). Both in turn defend the center whilst punching. The idea is to open the way for striking with the punches (and if needed pak, jut or bong to help) The idea is to turn your opponent so that he can't hit with his closest arm and the way has been cut for his furthest arm. As for defending against hooks then this is where the idea of Lut Sau Jik Chung comes in. We must interrupt the incoming attack by attacking the opponents balance. If we do this then any hook punch will not arrive. There are so many factors that need to be covered in order to explain my thinking that can be shown in no time at all. The written word is the worst way to convey each others messages and I think if we all agree on this then we will stop getting into fruitless arguments.

Because the VT attack is very linear in its execution the "hook punch" can pose many problems. Most use Tan Sau to spread out and deflect or stop the punch but I have been shown that this idea is not good. I was a boxer. I trained with boxers and there is only one way to defend a hook and that is to attack the person throwing it. Trying to block it causes so many problems especially if the guy throwing it knows what he is doing.

What I will say to avoid any complaints is that a well rounded fighter will destroy your average Wing Chun fighter. However if you have a Wing Chun fighter that can fight then its a different story. Maybe the outcome isnt so certain.

There is a website that is dedicated to taking the p**s out of Wing Chun you know. Has any other Martial Skill had so much bad press???? I dont think so.

GH

[Graham H]

If you'd like to visit sometime, I would welcome you.

I am asking because from my POV, one doesn't need to shift for power, and you already learn stepping before you learn Chum Kiu.

Loose steps like Bik Ma, Biu Ma, Sam Gwok Ma, etc. are already taught in an early curriculum. Combine that with striking, and you already have a basis for a good punch.

So, do you still need Chum Kiu?

Robert,

I was going to come and visit you years and years ago if you remember.

Ok so we have different ideas on WCK. In my system SLT is like your alphabet before you start to learn how to make words and sentences. The words and sentences being Chum Kiu and Chi Sau........ An explanation that WSL said frequently........ SLT???? Its an exercise so that we can learn the fundamentals and correct errors that we all have. We don't learn to pivot or step until we have the correct usage of the elbow. If we introduce things like stepping and pivoting to early then the error will remain and increase. Chum Kiu is where we learn to fight. So many people have it different but like I keep saying I like WSL and Philipp Bayers ideas.

GH

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Wanna play a cool little beginner's game?

Try fixed-step boxing.

Equipment Needed

Mouth Guard (Required)
Athletic Support (Required)
Headgear (Required)
Boxing gloves (Required)
Chest Protector (Recommended)

Here's the repetitive drill (I call them rhythm drills):

Partners stand square to each other, within punching distance.
Partner A punches 3 punches at partner B, who absorbs the punches with their guard. Partner B then punches 3 punches at partner A, who absorbs the punches with their guard. Repeat.

Objective: make your partner take a step by Punching them and without taking a step yourself.

Technical Rules: Only Punches are allowed. No punching to the head or legs. No stepping. No clinching. Partners must observe the rhythm of the drill.

Experiences had: Attempting to move your opponent by punching them; attempting to stand your ground while being punched.

Expected results: certain types of punches will consistently achieve the objective more effectively than others.

In my experience, the top 3 are the centerline punch, boxing cross, and body-uppercut punches. Of these, the most basic is the centerline punch.

The drill can be built on from here, with the addition of mobility, bridging, target specificity, broken timing and the like.

[t_niehoff]

By using the elbow to cut into the inside for the punch (fook Sau) or spread out from the center to the outside (tan sau). Both in turn defend the center whilst punching. The idea is to open the way for striking with the punches (and if needed pak, jut or bong to help) The idea is to turn your opponent so that he can't hit with his closest arm and the way has been cut for his furthest arm.

That *may* work when your opponent is throwing neat straight, elbow down punches provided a whole lot of things fall just your way.

How do you turn your opponent?

As for defending against hooks then this is where the idea of Lut Sau Jik Chung comes in. We must interrupt the incoming attack by attacking the opponents balance. If we do this then any hook punch will not arrive.

This is a very high risk approach isn't it? A stop hit strategy? You do know that you can still hit the opponent with your straight punch and it not prevent his hook, right? You see that happen in boxing all the time.

So basically, what you are telling me is that your view is that the WCK punch, the jik chung choi, is essentially to deflect incoming straight punches and stop hit any other punches (hooks, swings, overhands, bolo, etc.)?

Because the VT attack is very linear in its execution the "hook punch" can pose many problems. Most use Tan Sau to spread out and deflect or stop the punch but I have been shown that this idea is not good. I was a boxer. I trained with boxers and there is only one way to defend a hook and that is to attack the person throwing it. Trying to block it causes so many problems especially if the guy throwing it knows what he is doing.

I don't think you trained with good boxers. There are all kinds of PROVEN ways boxers use in dealing with hooks.

So what you are saying is that in your view and from your training, WCK doesn't have any good way of dealing with a hook except to throw a straight punch at your opponent in the hope that it will stop-hit him?

What I will say to avoid any complaints is that a well rounded fighter will destroy your average Wing Chun fighter.

If he is a fighter, then he isn't your average WCK guy.

[t_niehoff]

Wanna play a cool little beginner's game?

Try fixed-step boxing.

Equipment Needed

Mouth Guard (Required)
Athletic Support (Required)
Headgear (Required)
Boxing gloves (Required)
Chest Protector (Recommended)

Here's the repetitive drill (I call them rhythm drills):

Partners stand square to each other, within punching distance.
Partner A punches 3 punches at partner B, who absorbs the punches with their guard. Partner B then punches 3 punches at partner A, who absorbs the punches with their guard. Repeat.

Objective: make your partner take a step by Punching them and without taking a step yourself.

Technical Rules: Only Punches are allowed. No punching to the head or legs. No stepping. No clinching. Partners must observe the rhythm of the drill.

Experiences had: Attempting to move your opponent by punching them; attempting to stand your ground while being punched.

Expected results: certain types of punches will consistently achieve the objective more effectively than others.

In my experience, the top 3 are the centerline punch, boxing cross, and body-uppercut punches. Of these, the most basic is the centerline punch.

The drill can be built on from here, with the addition of mobility, bridging, target specificity, broken timing and the like.

You are very close to what my answer is.

[Graham H]

Terrence I love you and want to have your babies.