Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[Pacman]

they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

to shadow warrior--you are crazy. i speak cantonese and i can read chinese. my family is actually from sun duk too. i can also speak mandarin. you just make these claims, despite the fact that i cited things in your links that are written in chinese. you make no sense

Wow... I never imagined that this story is STILL being discussed here.

Anyways, Just to clear it up, the foreigners who were there actually was not even AWARE that the entire event was an apology meeting for the misrepresentation of the Yuen and Yiu family in the MOVIE. There were there because they knew that Ip Chun would be there, so they wanted to meet him and take pictures with him. Theses foreigners were indeed the students of Sin Kwok Lam's Sisok. The event did almost come to blows because of some misunderstanding on Yuen's part on why the foreigners were there.

The tea apology is a common courtesy to apologize for misunderstandings as well as to avoid having issues blow up more than it really needs to. A pubic statement of the misrepresentation was also needed since the movie was already out and the Yeun's family wanted to ensure that they are not "looked down upon" as casted in the movie.

It was pretty much THAT simple. The heated point only started when the foreigners showed up, which Yuen misunderstood and thought Yip group was trying to show force with the amount of people they had.

Anyways... This is just to let people know in case they were wondering who the foreigners were. And yes I do know the people who were at that meeting personally.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


It is almost impossible to have 100% accuracy with these historical stories and info.. Every person who records info is recording someones understanding of a story passed down. So, unless you look at numerous pieces of info with an open mind you will never come up with a more likely.

Ex: Leung Jan

I have interviewed numerous sources from Kulo family and each one will have different info.. Ex: the birth/death deaths in his family estate states: 1826-1901. Fung Sang's Info said he passed in 1888 but the one thing they both had in common was they both say he lives until he was about 75/76 years of age. Both are close to the same age but off by 13 Years! (maybe one is using Chinese calendar and the other not or maybe they both have different info.). This is a perfect example of ten people will have ten stories.

Wing Chun and Weng Chen are two different animals. In Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun you can clearly see where their Wing ends and their Weng begins just from watching their clips. No doubt there has been a fusion of arts plus village kung Fu added over the years. Yuen Kay San WIng Chun is also a fusion of wing chun from Fok Bo Chuen and weng chun from Fung Siu Ching and Wing'd up Cheung Bo stuff plus some ba gwa or toaist qigong. Leung Jan's Kulo teaching is a fusion of his Wing Chun from both his teachers plus his own modifications. Most of todays Cho family is a combo of Yik Kam
wing chun plus Choy Li Fut and other village kung Fu. The point to write this is to show we are all modified/evolved arts with evolved stories.

Just look at the Wong Fei Hong story. Right now we have numerous people saying
they all beat him in a chiallenge match. Chan, Yuen, Leung Jan etc... Guess what? If you go to ten villages you will get ten stories. In Kulo the people state it was LJ who
bested Wong Fei Hong in competition. One of the posters in LJ's estate was supposed to share the story of their meeting but the locals state they changed the last name to give face to Wong and Hung Gar. They call him Wong Fei 'Long' (dragon) from the north.

I have posted some of this story in this article:

http://www.w1ng.com/the-kung-fu-king...om-kulo-hoksan

In the end we should just preserve as many stories/info as possible and go from there. These arts are so difficult to sift thru because there are so many mish mash stories
and arts it is brutal for us to be 100% on anything! The one thing for sure is there is Wing Chun & Weng Chun and there is no doubt they have been evolving side by side for many years now.

A little free time on this holiday!


Gotta run.


Peace,
Jim

[A Joyful Proces]

si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business.

I'm barely skimming this thread, but Sin Kwok Lam is my sigung, this is completely untrue. He's a banker, holds law degrees & is a respectable student of both Ip Chun & Lau Kar Leung; he is neither gangster or loan shark.

[Pacman]

there is a lot more info and evidence from the third parties like official government files and texts from China that the west doesn't know about. For obvious reasons many students don't know about it.

As there is more video footage of the apology news conference that was not aired in public, like when Si Kwok Lim said," Everyone knows Yuen Kay San represented WC and took on all the public challenges, and he was Senior to Yipman in the WC family..."

Also, in Yip Chun's WC book, it mention his father knew Japanese...
Readers are not all stupid, they know what is fiction and wishing, and what is official documents and why a third party means objective statements.

"love is blind" especially when you have a whole chain of school and businesses behind it. For the same reason Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until someone insulted them. Yuen believes in harmony and peace too

[Hongkuenmia]

they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

to shadow warrior--you are crazy. i speak cantonese and i can read chinese. my family is actually from sun duk too. i can also speak mandarin. you just make these claims, despite the fact that i cited things in your links that are written in chinese. you make no sense

I am a hong kuen student of the Lau family, Sin Kwok Lam is my Sigung. Not only is he a well respected member of the Martial arts community but also a successful banker, business man and lawyer. He is not a gangster nor a loan shark and you should feel thoroughly ashamed of yourself to libellously attack a man who is held in such high esteem. He has spent many years mastering various fighting styles and is a dedicated promoter and practitioner of Kung fu. In future I suggest you keep your lies and deformation to yourself.

[wkmark]

Pacman-

You are hearing the story from Yuen's side. I am hearing it from the other side. Thus even IF we were BOTH there, our views of the situation would have our own interpretations. The foreigners were not brought there by Sin Kwok Lam. They weren't even on the same train heading up to the meeting. They weren't in the same train heading back from the meeting either. If you want to believe that the foreigners were brought there by Sin Kwok Lam, then go ahead and believe that. but the truth of the matter is that the guys were not.

As for the comment on Sin Kwok Lam. I SERIOUSLY suggest you have creditable reference before accusing him of being a former gangster/ loan shark.. etc.

they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

[t_niehoff]

"love is blind" especially when you have a whole chain of school and businesses behind it. For the same reason Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until someone insulted them. Yuen believes in harmony and peace too

Love CAN be blind -- even without a "whole chain of school and businesses behind it."

It's not that "Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until . . . " They NEVER tried. Ever. Only YOU are.

What's ironic is that YOU are doing the very things you object to (the Yip folks having done) -- being blinded by your lineage, throwing around false stories, etc. Two wrongs . . . .

BTW, what is your real name?

[Pacman]

Hello,
Wing Chun and Weng Chen are two different animals. In Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun you can clearly see where their Wing ends and their Weng begins just from watching their clips. No doubt there has been a fusion of arts plus village kung Fu added over the years. Yuen Kay San WIng Chun is also a fusion of wing chun from Fok Bo Chuen and weng chun from Fung Siu Ching and Wing'd up Cheung Bo stuff plus some ba gwa or toaist qigong. Leung Jan's Kulo teaching is a fusion of his Wing Chun from both his teachers plus his own modifications. Most of todays Cho family is a combo of Yik Kam
wing chun plus Choy Li Fut and other village kung Fu. The point to write this is to show we are all modified/evolved arts with evolved stories.

glad you gave some clarity to this. it is important to clarify that not all WCK is the same so that our discussions can be substantive.

[Pacman]

Pacman-

You are hearing the story from Yuen's side. I am hearing it from the other side. Thus even IF we were BOTH there, our views of the situation would have our own interpretations. The foreigners were not brought there by Sin Kwok Lam. They weren't even on the same train heading up to the meeting. They weren't in the same train heading back from the meeting either. If you want to believe that the foreigners were brought there by Sin Kwok Lam, then go ahead and believe that. but the truth of the matter is that the guys were not.

As for the comment on Sin Kwok Lam. I SERIOUSLY suggest you have creditable reference before accusing him of being a former gangster/ loan shark.. etc.

in Hong Kong, most everyone in the movie business is attached to the triads in some way. even funnyman stephen chow sing-chi was not able to enter the US in 1997 due to his triad ties

[t_niehoff]

glad you gave some clarity to this. it is important to clarify that not all WCK is the same so that our discussions can be substantive.

WCK is WCK. The different branches are just various persons' curriculum for teaching it. It's the same in BJJ, different lineages which have slightly different flavors, slightly different focuses, etc. yet in the end, it is all just BJJ. And, those differences aren't significant in finding your game, in developing your skill, etc.

You can't have substantive discussions without substance.

[Pacman]

WCK is WCK. The different branches are just various persons' curriculum for teaching it. It's the same in BJJ, different lineages which have slightly different flavors, slightly different focuses, etc. yet in the end, it is all just BJJ. And, those differences aren't significant in finding your game, in developing your skill, etc.

You can't have substantive discussions without substance.

funny you mention substance. you have said this many times in different threads, without response to my challenges.

if all is the same, tell me what the equivalent of "arrow step" or "flapping wing palm" in YM or Kulo WC?

even if all contained the same movements (which they dont), the method or curriculum for teaching is probably the most significant. this influences how these skills are applied, which makes all the difference in the world. just look at sum dek performing SLT vs those in YM or other lineages. the resulting WCK will not be the same

[t_niehoff]

funny you mention substance. you have said this many times in different threads, without response to my challenges.

What "challenges"?

if all is the same, tell me what the equivalent of "arrow step" or "flapping wing palm" in YM or Kulo WC?

In the YM curriculum, typically the arrow step is taught in the "battle punches" drill and/or in the pole. The "flapping wing palm" is in the dummy, though slightly different. The flapping wing palm is called linked fast palms in Gu Lao 40 point (same movement).

One thing with the curriculum, some things one teacher/lineage makes explicit, another makes implicit. Another is that while there may be variations, the core remains the same.

even if all contained the same movements (which they dont), the method or curriculum for teaching is probably the most significant. this influences how these skills are applied, which makes all the difference in the world. just look at sum dek performing SLT vs those in YM or other lineages. the resulting WCK will not be the same

'
Skills -- fighting skills which are how you apply your WCK -- don't come from the WCK forms or the WCK drills. They come ONLY from fighting and trying to use our WCK method and actions. You only develop fighting skills by and through fighting. The forms and drills only teach you the movement/actions and some tactics, they do not develop the ability to fight. So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.

It doesn't matter - in terms of developing skills - how you perform the forms. The forms don't teach you how to fight, the fight teaches you how to do your forms.

BTW, you still haven't provided your real name. Is that a problem?

[Dragonzbane76]

Skills -- fighting skills which are how you apply your WCK -- don't come from the WCK forms or the WCK drills. They come ONLY from fighting and trying to use our WCK method and actions. You only develop fighting skills by and through fighting. The forms and drills only teach you the movement/actions and some tactics, they do not develop the ability to fight. So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Pacman]

So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.

if you dont learn how to apply these skills from your teacher then he isnt teaching you much anything. its like learning the alphabet but not learning how to read. if this is how you view things then i understand why a person would say WCK is pretty much the same. WCK all looks similar when you view it superficially like in a book.

WCK does not just consist of the movements but the application of those movements. thats what defines a style. look at mexican boxers vs black boxers from the US. they have the same moves, but their boxing is not the same.

It doesn't matter - in terms of developing skills - how you perform the forms. The forms don't teach you how to fight, the fight teaches you how to do your forms.

it matters because it influences the application. i googled "battle punches" because i never heard of that term. I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIp-rxdwxUA

it is called "jin choi" or arrow punch, but it is not the same as what is in sum nung's WC. not only is it visually different, but i can tell that the practitioners application is totally opposite of what Sum Nung's WC stresses. His school's weighted vest training turns his training into something else, which will in turn transform the way he applies jin choi

so its not just about having a "similar movement". because you think this way, it is apparent that your WC "training" was superficial at best.

BTW, you still haven't provided your real name. Is that a problem?

my name is Altaf Mazid. why do you keep asking? are you looking for a date or about to charles manson me at my home?

[t_niehoff]

if you dont learn how to apply these skills from your teacher then he isnt teaching you much anything. its like learning the alphabet but not learning how to read. if this is how you view things then i understand why a person would say WCK is pretty much the same. WCK all looks similar when you view it superficially like in a book.

When you learn to box, everyone learns the SAME movement/actions, the same fundamentals, e.g., the jab, cross, hook, slipping, etc. But you don't "learn to box", to put these things together for yourself, and develop into a fighter, except by and through boxing (sparring in the ring). It's not through your boxing teacher but through your sparring partners that you "learn to box". It's the same with BJJ, and the same with WCK.

WCK does not just consist of the movements but the application of those movements. thats what defines a style. look at mexican boxers vs black boxers from the US. they have the same moves, but their boxing is not the same.

Yes, it is. Fighting and its methods, whether boxing, wrestling, BJJ, or WCK, is an INDIVIDUAL endeavor. When you see people box, do you see the same movements -- jabs, crosses, hooks, slipping, etc.? Yes, because you see the same fundamentals in action. Boxing is boxing. And that's why we can look at any individual in a fight and see whether or not they are using boxing -- just by looking at their movement: are they using boxing movements (boxing fundamentals)?

Similarly, WCK is WCK. Every *legitimate* branch/lineage has the same fundamentals (YJKYM, jik chung choi, tan sao, fook sao, bong sao, etc.). However, how an individual uses/puts together those fundamentals and/or how various groups emphasize those fundamentals can and will vary.

it matters because it influences the application.

Results are the only true influence. When you box (spar) you find what works best for you, and you put together your own game using the fundamentals.

i googled "battle punches" because i never heard of that term. I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIp-rxdwxUA

it is called "jin choi" or arrow punch, but it is not the same as what is in sum nung's WC. not only is it visually different, but i can tell that the practitioners application is totally opposite of what Sum Nung's WC stresses. His school's weighted vest training turns his training into something else, which will in turn transform the way he applies jin choi

I didn't learn it with the weighted jacket either (which makes no sense IMO).

so its not just about having a "similar movement". because you think this way, it is apparent that your WC "training" was superficial at best.

I'm not talking about "a similar movement" -- I'm talking about the same fundamental skills.

my name is Altaf Mazid. why do you keep asking? are you looking for a date or about to charles manson me at my home?

Love your movies.