Yuen Kay San Sil Lim Tau

[t_niehoff]

Clarence,

You've got to be kidding. Just look at how your "sihing" moves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVXH9f1WMbY

Seriously. You really think this is good? That was pure crap. That isn't even good beginner level WCK. It's bad beyond words! Everyone was off balance, they were both out of range, there was no power, what was being practiced was sh1t (if you cross pak like that you WILL be KOed, that's a REALLY bad habit to teach) -- and Stan's son is backing up because he was afraid of being hit (which tells me he doesn't spar) and has no skill or body connection. It was sh1t responding to sh1t.

Just by looking at Stan I can tell that he isn't even in shape to spar. And I can tell by how he moves, he doesn't have the basic skills needed to spar. He would get seriously hurt really sparring.

Stop fantasizing. "Your people" are "not about sparring" -- if they were, "your people" wouldn't put up this nonsense but put up sparring clips. We both know that I have intimate knowledge of "your people". Look at Stan's own description of the clip you posted: "We are applying the Si Lim Tao techniques in combat." WTF? He thinks that is "combat"?

As I have told you, I think -- from knowing a great deal about your group, and from our conversations on and off the forum -- that you guys are nuttier than squirrel poop. I want nothing to do with crazy people since IME (and I deal with them on a professional level all the time) they end up doing crazy things which only causes grief for anyone around them. The idea of out of shape, unskilled people getting together and 'sparring" (and God knows what you think that is) in public parks -- which btw is against the law in St. Louis, but nutty people never think of such things -- only shows how nutty you guys are.

I told you before, if you think you guys are good, there is a very easy way to find out -- go visit any decent MMA or MT gym and ask to spar. But I got to tell you, most reputable gyms won't let you spar unless you can prove that you are in physical condition to spar. For example, where I train you would need to show that you can do 50 push ups at a clip, 200 sit ups, 20 minutes of straight cardio (running, rope, etc.), etc. before they would let you spar.

[reneritchie]

FWIW - Sum Dek is doing it the way Sum Nung did it, the way every direct student of Sum Nung I've had the fortune to meet does it.

If you see a Siu Lien Tao that's substantively different than that, it's not what Sum Nung taught. (And no, there are no secret versions).

Also, the Wu Sao is done like that in YKS/SN. Every system is a cohesive whole and any piece taken out absent that whole probably won't make sense by itself, especially when interpreted in the context of a different system.

[Hendrik]

FWIW - Sum Dek is doing it the way Sum Nung did it, the way every direct student of Sum Nung I've had the fortune to meet does it.

If you see a Siu Lien Tao that's substantively different than that, it's not what Sum Nung taught. (And no, there are no secret versions).

Also, the Wu Sao is done like that in YKS/SN. Every system is a cohesive whole and any piece taken out absent that whole probably won't make sense by itself, especially when interpreted in the context of a different system.

Great to see Rene is here.


Here are my 5 cents.


1,
There are signatures of every lineages which could be identify and look for. But if those signature is missing then one is no longer doing the same thing.

I myself do not buy in such claim as every master add in their stuffs or to be innovation as Bruce Lee etc.

Form is not for innovation and creativity. There are purpose and reason for doing things.



2, according to Yik Kam text of 1850 the Wu Sao in SLT in fact needs to be done as in YKS/SN. The reason is simply there are certain key considerations in term or body, mind, and breathing which needs to be satisfied.

[Hendrik]

Seriously. You really think this is good? That was pure crap. That isn't even good beginner level WCK. .

IMHO,

1, I think you could phrase you words better. let's not get into personal.

2, technically What the clip shows, even thought could be looked common these days for WCner , it is not showing WCK.
but some type of beginer level of Nam Kuen two hand fighting.

As for the reach out, the issue is lots of people using the reach/ stretch out to generate power in order to feel secure on handling the in coming hand. and that turn into dead trap for take down.

3, That SLT practice got a problem.
and this problem is also common these days for WCners.
and that is to let loose the different part of body going different way or get into chaos. Some get this bad habit from trying to imitate the Chen Taiji's reel silk.
instead of reel silk, it turns into a under damp or in stability dissaster.

[Yoshiyahu]

Stan is at my house right now. He has somethings he wishes to share about some of your comments. His page is not approved yet so He is typing on my account. Anyway Here are his views to your negative comments.

Stan's response;

First of All Rene Ritche. I read your book Yuen Kay San. I thought we were brothers. All one family. But since we are not this is what I think of you! Your horse stance is weak! I can tell you do your Sil Lim Tao real slow. So I know you can't defend against an American Boxer from the Hood. They would hand your hat to you. They would jab at you an as soon as you would try to defend they would pull it back and punch you with the other hand. An when you try to run in with chasing step they would be backing up striking you in the face. Your Sil Lim Tao is done slow. So your fighting would be slow. You don't even understand this yet. An if you say you do, You haven't met a good boxer that can jab. We always train in boxing gyms in the inner city of St.Louis such as wholes community center and tandy community center. They all had golden glove boxers constantly working out. The Likes of Leon Spinx, Michael Spinx, Hands of Stone, and Big hands would all throw punches at us. An all we did would use SLT to defend ourselves. In your book Yuen Kay San chapter six page #56 Extinguishing the candle Flame. Your student is doing it at three inches. Thats for Babies. A real Expert can extinguish a candle flame from four feet away. I know you can't because it aint in the book. You all are just babies. Anyone can tell I was doing Wing Chun, what makes it Wing Chun are the hand techniques such as Pak Sao, Tan Sao, Bong Sao. Everyone does their forms differently. But your making it seem like everybodies form is the same. You are a liar. You know everyones forms is not the same.

Terrence Niehoff Your just fake. Where is your youtube video. You don't have one do you? Your just amateur. When you do the form Sil Lim Tao, each hand technique is done with one hand with the exception of one section. That is the double Bil Sao section. I know you don't know what you watching. So you just think Juijitsu is the Ultimate Art. But it is not. It Just a wrestling art. Alot of those guys are getting knocked by those who aren't that good of a boxer. You are not qualified to critique my hand techniques. Until you post your youtube video. Because I know how its going to look. Your going to be rolling around on the ground on top of each other butts. Like ***s.

[LSWCTN1]

Holding a "prayer palm" in front of your chest -- or worse, face -- as "protection" is very low-level WCK.

as you say, it should always be a presursor to another movement, but it does NEED to be there. try doing pak with and without wu. it IS far stronger with...

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1031779]
I'll give you a hint -- in the SNT, we do the tan sao, fook sao, and wu sao in the SBF section. All those ACTIONS occur after contact, and are bridge hands (hands in contact with an opponent).
QUOTE]

again, i respectfully disagree. they are, like Kev Gedhill describes, different ways of punching thrown BEFORE contact to cut the bridge. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHZ0xrd5fY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prTFbXgIM4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giVMjnCkTBo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEBr8XVi3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaGnTqk_FlU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN8e_bzlJY


All of these videos are from the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung lineage. But each Sifu adds there own innovations. !

I have been told that most 'old time' sifu would change their forms slightly to put their own stamp on things...

how many here practice a synthesised version of their forms they have been taught? i know i do. they may pass the original and their own on in conjunction with each other...

Great to see Rene is here.
.

agreed!

Stan is at my house right now. He has somethings he wishes to share about some of your comments. His page is not approved yet so He is typing on my account. Anyway Here are his views to your negative comments.

Stan's response;

First of All Rene Ritche. I read your book Yuen Kay San. I thought we were brothers. All one family. But since we are not this is what I think of you! Your horse stance is weak! I can tell you do your Sil Lim Tao real slow. So I know you can't defend against an American Boxer from the Hood. They would hand your hat to you. They would jab at you an as soon as you would try to defend they would pull it back and punch you with the other hand. An when you try to run in with chasing step they would be backing up striking you in the face. Your Sil Lim Tao is done slow. So your fighting would be slow. You don't even understand this yet. An if you say you do, You haven't met a good boxer that can jab. We always train in boxing gyms in the inner city of St.Louis such as wholes community center and tandy community center. They all had golden glove boxers constantly working out. The Likes of Leon Spinx, Michael Spinx, Hands of Stone, and Big hands would all throw punches at us. An all we did would use SLT to defend ourselves. In your book Yuen Kay San chapter six page #56 Extinguishing the candle Flame. Your student is doing it at three inches. Thats for Babies. A real Expert can extinguish a candle flame from four feet away. I know you can't because it aint in the book. You all are just babies. Anyone can tell I was doing Wing Chun, what makes it Wing Chun are the hand techniques such as Pak Sao, Tan Sao, Bong Sao. Everyone does their forms differently. But your making it seem like everybodies form is the same. You are a liar. You know everyones forms is not the same.

Terrence Niehoff Your just fake. Where is your youtube video. You don't have one do you? Your just amateur. When you do the form Sil Lim Tao, each hand technique is done with one hand with the exception of one section. That is the double Bil Sao section. I know you don't know what you watching. So you just think Juijitsu is the Ultimate Art. But it is not. It Just a wrestling art. Alot of those guys are getting knocked by those who aren't that good of a boxer. You are not qualified to critique my hand techniques. Until you post your youtube video. Because I know how its going to look. Your going to be rolling around on the ground on top of each other butts. Like ***s.

i am taught that the first section is slow, and the second and third are done in combat speed. got a feeling that this is similar to YKS thought too.

[t_niehoff]

Stan is at my house right now. He has somethings he wishes to share about some of your comments. His page is not approved yet so He is typing on my account. Anyway Here are his views to your negative comments.

Stan's response;

First of All Rene Ritche. I read your book Yuen Kay San. I thought we were brothers. All one family. But since we are not this is what I think of you! Your horse stance is weak! I can tell you do your Sil Lim Tao real slow. So I know you can't defend against an American Boxer from the Hood. They would hand your hat to you. They would jab at you an as soon as you would try to defend they would pull it back and punch you with the other hand. An when you try to run in with chasing step they would be backing up striking you in the face. Your Sil Lim Tao is done slow. So your fighting would be slow. You don't even understand this yet. An if you say you do, You haven't met a good boxer that can jab. We always train in boxing gyms in the inner city of St.Louis such as wholes community center and tandy community center. They all had golden glove boxers constantly working out. The Likes of Leon Spinx, Michael Spinx, Hands of Stone, and Big hands would all throw punches at us. An all we did would use SLT to defend ourselves. In your book Yuen Kay San chapter six page #56 Extinguishing the candle Flame. Your student is doing it at three inches. Thats for Babies. A real Expert can extinguish a candle flame from four feet away. I know you can't because it aint in the book. You all are just babies. Anyone can tell I was doing Wing Chun, what makes it Wing Chun are the hand techniques such as Pak Sao, Tan Sao, Bong Sao. Everyone does their forms differently. But your making it seem like everybodies form is the same. You are a liar. You know everyones forms is not the same.

Terrence Niehoff Your just fake. Where is your youtube video. You don't have one do you? Your just amateur. When you do the form Sil Lim Tao, each hand technique is done with one hand with the exception of one section. That is the double Bil Sao section. I know you don't know what you watching. So you just think Juijitsu is the Ultimate Art. But it is not. It Just a wrestling art. Alot of those guys are getting knocked by those who aren't that good of a boxer. You are not qualified to critique my hand techniques. Until you post your youtube video. Because I know how its going to look. Your going to be rolling around on the ground on top of each other butts. Like ***s.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Yoshiyahu]

LSWCTN1 Thanks for your comments. My Sifu taught me to do Sil Lim Tao ten times. But each time I do it a little differently. He taught me to do it slow with light force. Medium with medium force and fast and hard. So that way I practice it to get increased benefits. But When I am ill or not feeling well or injured I practice slow until I am well enough to proceed to speed. But ne way Thanks for you insight. Yes the Wu sau Fok Sau section is suspose to be slow due to fact that particular section is also qi gung/chi kung. So its done slow to developed Chi, Soft energy or Internal strength. But any way thank you for your non-bias and non-bashing comment.


For all who read the last post under my user name. That was my Sihing typing until his account is activiated he used my mines to write a response. Anyway I shared with him the comments on his youtube page. Thats why he responded. Before he wasnt even on this forum but think to likes of Terrence Niehoff I think he will become and active partcipant. Thanks for the publicity His videos are getting alot of hits and recognition from authenic martial artist from the main land.

As a matter of fact I have no idea how Terrence even knew about his youtube video because I just saw the day T made the post about it. Wow..i guess Terrence is really looking for some YKS wc in st.louis?

Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?

Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?

[t_niehoff]

For all who read the last post under my user name. That was my Sihing typing until his account is activiated he used my mines to write a response. Anyway I shared with him the comments on his youtube page. Thats why he responded. Before he wasnt even on this forum but think to likes of Terrence Niehoff I think he will become and active partcipant. Thanks for the publicity His videos are getting alot of hits and recognition from authenic martial artist from the main land.

He does know that the recognition is for, right?

As a matter of fact I have no idea how Terrence even knew about his youtube video because I just saw the day T made the post about it. Wow..i guess Terrence is really looking for some YKS wc in st.louis?

I've seen GENUINE YKS/SN WCK. There is none in St. Louis. I already told you that, Clarence. Eddie Ma was a fraud. He didn't really know YKS WCK (he knew some parts and those really poorly). If you got out and trained with some genuine YKS people (like Rene), you'd know that I am telling you the truth.

Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?

Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?

I know all about that bizarre group, thank you very much -- haven't we had off-forum discussions where I told you about McField, Buschard, Mohammed/James, John, Burnside, etc.?

Why don't you ask Eddie Ma about the one time he and I met, and how I told him to his face that he was a fraud, and what happened after that?

You guys don't have the actual YKS/Cheung Bo san sik, you haven't learned the proper forms, you don't know and haven't learned the progressive training drills unique to YKS WCK, you don't have the rest of the YKS curriculum. Not only that, but what you do have and the way you "interpret" it is completely foreign to the way the YKS curriculum is taught (the "pack sow jut sao cycle"! LOL!). Rene, who was trained by a direct, senior student of Sum, and with Sum himself in China, who has met many direct students of Sum, and is arguably one of most knowledgeable and respected of YKS WCK practitioners in the world, tells you that you're wrong(as I'm sure you don't know, Sum was very particular and insistent that the forms be performed in a very specific way). But do you listen? No. Instead we get a rant about how he is a liar, blah, blah, blah.

[chusauli]

Rene definitely has the authentic YKS system and is a leading authority on the system. His Sifu was one of Sum Nung's oldest and closest students. Rene even went back to China to visit his Si Gung, Sum Nung.

From what I can see of the Siu Lien Tao set in the first link, there needs a lot of work.

[t_niehoff]

Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?

Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?

I already answered this but wanted to add for those following this:

Here's McField's school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncruQcv40o

Take note of the comment by "Stan".

[Wayfaring]

Here's McField's school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncruQcv40o

I can't be completely sure, but I think I saw Zorro in this video

[shawchemical]

Here is a basic video of Sil Lim Tau check it out...tell me what you think...


http://www.youtube.com/user/stan4900#p/u/4/ybN8e_bzlJY

I just vomited in my mouth a little.

That is terrible.

[Yoshiyahu]

I already answered this but wanted to add for those following this:

Here's McField's school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncruQcv40o

Take note of the comment by "Stan".

CAn I get a simple yes or no to my questions?

Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?

Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?

[t_niehoff]

CAn I get a simple yes or no to my questions?

No.

Hey Terrence have you ever trained with Robert McField?

Also have you ever met or sparred with any of his students?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to train with McField? Or with any of its spawn?

BTW, do you guys also include Choi Lee Fut into your "training" like McF? I recall how he did that after he got kicked in the head at the karate tourney (when trying to move in with triangle steps and his hands low). It was after that he began saying that WCK was "lacking" in long range techniques, and so "added" CLF (which he didn't learn from a competent instructor either). Or, did you guys stay pure to the Eddie Ma stuff?