Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was talking about nei gong from a physical cultivation which also leads to health spiritual cultivation. Spiritual cultivation and health qi gong will not necessarily develop a strong body but a strong body will lead to the other two.

Visualization is not something that was invented in the east and given to the west. They took what humans already naturally do(using their imagination) and turned it into guided excercises. And now people sell it as something different and better when it is just more of the same. Do you honestly believe that Europeans, before meeting the Chinese and Indians(from India), never used visualization? They just ran blindly into battle? They just haphazardly built buildings without visualizing them first? If you do some special tantric whatever that is fine but d no build it up to be better or worse than anything else.

I think you may be missing the point, which is that thsse things ARE PART of TCMA and part, typically, of neigong.
And they were applied to MA in the east before they became "trendy" in modern sports.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ren,
I think sometimes people confuse Qigong with neigong.

[RenDaHai]

Ren,
I think sometimes people confuse Qigong with neigong.

Yea, I think so. I Guess because of cultural and language barriers its not well explored...

[MysteriousPower]

The funny thing about all this is that if I were a famous sifu people would believe what I was saying. Posters here would literally say, "Hmm. I think I see what you are talking about, respected sifu. I never took the time to think about it that way and thanks for pointing that out.".

I only go by the availavle history records and not by fantasy. It has been shown that the term "qi gong" is a relatively new term coined by Sun Lu Tang. When he wrote about the martial arts he was trying to raise the reputation of the martial arts and martial artists by attributing Taoist principles and Chinese medicine principles to the three "internal" martial arts. It was after he wrote his three books that all the chi-huggers came crawlng out.

Sifu Tim Cartmell and Sifu Mike Patterson studied with Hsu Hong Ji in Taiwan. Master Hsu had them doing a hundred push ups a day, one legged squats, one legged san to stance training, nei gong, break falls, jumping and rolling breakfalls, and sparring. This was done every class. Nei gong was only one part of the whole process and not better or worse or special compared to other methods.

[Dragonzbane76]

Sifu Tim Cartmell and Sifu Mike Patterson studied with Hsu Hong Ji in Taiwan.

internal styles?

OMG doing actual body conditioning in an internal....the vulture is going to land I can feel it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sifu Tim Cartmell and Sifu Mike Patterson studied with Hsu Hong Ji in Taiwan. Master Hsu had them doing a hundred push ups a day, one legged squats, one legged san to stance training, nei gong, break falls, jumping and rolling breakfalls, and sparring. This was done every class. Nei gong was only one part of the whole process and not better or worse or special compared to other methods.

'

That IS what is being said bro, what Ren is also saying is that Neigong is NOT about building physical attributes like qigong, but mental ones.
Now, I am sure one can mediate and work on mental attributes WHILE doing something physical, even very physical, as the Yogis do it, but that isn't typical neigong.

[David Jamieson]

The funny thing about all this is that if I were a famous sifu people would believe what I was saying. Posters here would literally say, "Hmm. I think I see what you are talking about, respected sifu. I never took the time to think about it that way and thanks for pointing that out.".

Do you hate this forum? Why? Why do you hate kungfu? Did it hurt you? This whole statement is whining.lol

I only go by the availavle history records and not by fantasy. It has been shown that the term "qi gong" is a relatively new term coined by Sun Lu Tang. When he wrote about the martial arts he was trying to raise the reputation of the martial arts and martial artists by attributing Taoist principles and Chinese medicine principles to the three "internal" martial arts. It was after he wrote his three books that all the chi-huggers came crawlng out.

prana veda pre-exists, but is the same thing. It is not a recent concept nor is it a recent idea and it certainly isn't and can't be wholly attributed to sun lu tang. chan and breath work was around before he was a twinkle in his dads eye. So, don't put too much weight into legends of sun lu tang. most of it is nonsense anyway, especially when we are talking about early masters. There is a tendency to inflate their images. For instance, It's well know in scotland that william wallace was at leats 7 feet tall and carried a claymore that weighed no less than 5 stone!

Of course, that is utter crap, but william wallace was real and he was a pain in the ass to king edward and his ruthless rule of britain. anyway, all cultures do this with even the smallest of their heroes.

Sifu Tim Cartmell and Sifu Mike Patterson studied with Hsu Hong Ji in Taiwan. Master Hsu had them doing a hundred push ups a day, one legged squats, one legged san to stance training, nei gong, break falls, jumping and rolling breakfalls, and sparring. This was done every class. Nei gong was only one part of the whole process and not better or worse or special compared to other methods.

Yeah, you know what, my sifu had us do very difficult conditioning and endurance work as well. Being published doesn't make you better, it makes you published. Competing doesn't make you great, it means you competed at one time.

a hundred push ups a day? that's a joke right?

I don't think anyone said nei gong was all there was to it.
you seem to desperately just want to bash on things you clearly don't have any training in or understanding of. You need to reflect on that first and foremost.

You anger is like clutching a hot coal with the intention of throwing it at someone, but never doing so. In which case, the only one getting burned by your anger, is you.

[RenDaHai]

@Ronin,

Spot on

@Mysterion

Even if you were famous and said stuff like that, I'd make the same comments.

The whole Internal, External MA is not a good division. I'm Shaolin and most of my training is meditation.

Nei Gong is something very old indeed.... A long long time before Sun Lu tang, or before the current form of chinese medicine. Before the Dao De Jing even. Roughly similar practices appear in all cultures, the world over.

Its the most ancient of practices. And it is for everyone to learn, not just Martial artists.

It can't be learned as a set you can just go through now and again... Its a lot more than the kind of practices you describe.

In a way it represents the ultimate evolution of the warrior....

[MysteriousPower]

Do you hate this forum? Why? Why do you hate kungfu? Did it hurt you? This whole statement is whining.lol


prana veda pre-exists, but is the same thing. It is not a recent concept nor is it a recent idea and it certainly isn't and can't be wholly attributed to sun lu tang. chan and breath work was around before he was a twinkle in his dads eye. So, don't put too much weight into legends of sun lu tang. most of it is nonsense anyway, especially when we are talking about early masters. There is a tendency to inflate their images. For instance, It's well know in scotland that william wallace was at leats 7 feet tall and carried a claymore that weighed no less than 5 stone!

Of course, that is utter crap, but william wallace was real and he was a pain in the ass to king edward and his ruthless rule of britain. anyway, all cultures do this with even the smallest of their heroes.



Yeah, you know what, my sifu had us do very difficult conditioning and endurance work as well. Being published doesn't make you better, it makes you published. Competing doesn't make you great, it means you competed at one time.

a hundred push ups a day? that's a joke right?

I don't think anyone said nei gong was all there was to it.
you seem to desperately just want to bash on things you clearly don't have any training in or understanding of. You need to reflect on that first and foremost.

You anger is like clutching a hot coal with the intention of throwing it at someone, but never doing so. In which case, the only one getting burned by your anger, is you.

I do not hate this forum or anyone on it. My initial paragraph was a jest. The opinions of the people I have spoken to differ from yours and that is all they are. Opinions! The fact that the mentioned people competed and are published says that they had material that was good enough to be published. Vince Black also studied with Hsu Hong Ji. Does his opinion mean less because you do not agree with it? The fact that you disagree does not make your opinion any better or worse than mine so get off your high horse.

If you want to believe you are circulating the energy of the heavens through your body then go ahead but I just wanted to let you know you are imagining it all.



Keep circulating your qi and keeping your deadly secrets. Because like the ancient taoists who tried to live forever...you will pass eventually.

I am not for esoteric nonsense. The above mentioned individuals speak, write, and translate Chinese so they have a better sense than you do of what the Chinese were talking about. They are not reading screwed up translations and then screwing them up further with contemporary chi-hugger talk.

I was not bringing up Sun Lu Tang because he was a bigger than life Chinese hero. I brought him up because he was the first to write about any of this stuff and all of this hippy nonsense started AFTER he wrote his books. Ren, you say nei gong is older than Sun Lu Tang? You are probably correct...but where are the books dating back to antiquity to prove your point?

[David Jamieson]

I do not hate this forum or anyone on it. My initial paragraph was a jest. The opinions of the people I have spoken to differ from yours and that is all they are. Opinions! The fact that the mentioned people competed and are published says that they had material that was good enough to be published. Vince Black also studied with Hsu Hong Ji. Does his opinion mean less because you do not agree with it? The fact that you disagree does not make your opinion any better or worse than mine so get off your high horse.

I think you're the one on the high horse here.

If you want to believe you are circulating the energy of the heavens through your body then go ahead but I just wanted to let you know you are imagining it all.

If you want to believe you will never understand how a human body works and what allegory is fine. I just want to let you know that you are ignorant. Not stupid. Just not knowing. And in fact, you are creating barriers to understanding by putting up opposition to ideas about it almost as immediately as they are laid before you. This makes your mind closed, not trying to learn, but rather, actively rejecting. When you argue from ignorance, such as you are doing, then you actually don't know what it is your are rejecting outright.
Practice and know.

Keep circulating your qi and keeping your deadly secrets. Because like the ancient taoists who tried to live forever...you will pass eventually.

I have no secrets and am well aware of my own mortality.

I am not for esoteric nonsense. The above mentioned individuals speak, write, and translate Chinese so they have a better sense than you do of what the Chinese were talking about. They are not reading screwed up translations and then screwing them up further with contemporary chi-hugger talk.

again, i didn't read about it, I was receiving direct transmission. Huge difference and nothing lost in translation.

I was not bringing up Sun Lu Tang because he was a bigger than life Chinese hero. I brought him up because he was the first to write about any of this stuff and all of this hippy nonsense started AFTER he wrote his books. Ren, you say nei gong is older than Sun Lu Tang? You are probably correct...but where are the books dating back to antiquity to prove your point?

No, you are incorrect. sun lu tang was not the first. He also stood on the shoulders of giants. Breath work and internal work pre existed him, written or not.
Maybe this is your arguing from ignorance again?

[MysteriousPower]

I think you're the one on the high horse here.

If you want to believe you will never understand how a human body works and what allegory is fine. I just want to let you know that you are ignorant. Not stupid. Just not knowing. And in fact, you are creating barriers to understanding by putting up opposition to ideas about it almost as immediately as they are laid before you. This makes your mind closed, not trying to learn, but rather, actively rejecting. When you argue from ignorance, such as you are doing, then you actually don't know what it is your are rejecting outright.
Practice and know.


I have no secrets and am well aware of my own mortality.
again, i didn't read about it, I was receiving direct transmission. Huge difference and nothing lost in translation.


No, you are incorrect. sun lu tang was not the first. He also stood on the shoulders of giants. Breath work and internal work pre existed him, written or not.
Maybe this is your arguing from ignorance again?

I would argue that you are arguing from fantasy. Ignorance that "nei gong" movement is more than exercise is arguing fantasy. You received a direct transmission? What if the transmitter never understood? What I am arguing is that you are saying there is more to nei gong than there actually is. That is what I am arguing and if that is ignorance than so be it because I am not living in some taoist fantasy.

It existed before Sun Lu Tang but I am pretty sure it was not written about before Sun.

[David Jamieson]

I would argue that you are arguing from fantasy. Ignorance that "nei gong" movement is more than exercise is arguing fantasy. You received a direct transmission? What if the transmitter never understood? What I am arguing is that you are saying there is more to nei gong than there actually is. That is what I am arguing and if that is ignorance than so be it because I am not living in some taoist fantasy.

It existed before Sun Lu Tang but I am pretty sure it was not written about before Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing



I can't help but notice that you are once again rejecting. Just practice. No one is going to give you anything, you have to build it yourself. But you can't start if you reject the tools to be used to build.

[RenDaHai]

If you want to believe you are circulating the energy of the heavens through your body then go ahead but I just wanted to let you know you are imagining it all.

Ren, you say nei gong is older than Sun Lu Tang? You are probably correct...but where are the books dating back to antiquity to prove your point?

Nei Gong is thousands of years old, as is Yoga, a similar practice.

Perhaps Qi exists only as part of the mind, but you can still practice the mind.

A Book?

Have you heard of the Dao De Jing (c.500 B.c)? Texts as ancient as this one can be interpreted in too many ways I suppose, but this one is even considered a Nei Gong Manual in some sects.

Sunlutang was only a short time ago. Have you heard of the Journey to the west? The book about the monkey king who gained his remarkable powers through the practice of Nei GOng?? This book is 500 odd years old. The legend of the monkey king is much older. What about the stories of Lao Zu and his 'pill of immortality'? (The pill of immortality refers to the Dan Tian, Dan in chinese is a word for a pill/tablet/medicine/elixir/panacea), Tian is field...Dan tian is the..well you should know.

Have you heard the legends of Qin Shi Huang who supposedly refined his nei gong in the 'Huang' Shan mountains, there after named for him. That too was 2500 years ago. (QinShiHuang was the first true emperor of china and the terracota warriors guard his tomb).

Nei gong is refferred to massively and often in chinese literature, history, myths and legends it is usually referred to as 'INNER ALCHEMY' by translation.

Whats awesome is these 'legendary' practices still go on today, and if you want it, you can learn it too.

I mean, its such a huge part of chinese history, myth, legend, MA, everything, that is staggers me you think it was never written about before Sunlutang in the 1800's. I mean....Dude... Way to show the lack of knowledge.....I am dissapointed i bothered arguing with you now....

[ittokaos]

I would argue that you are arguing from fantasy. Ignorance that "nei gong" movement is more than exercise is arguing fantasy. You received a direct transmission? What if the transmitter never understood? What I am arguing is that you are saying there is more to nei gong than there actually is. That is what I am arguing and if that is ignorance than so be it because I am not living in some taoist fantasy.

It existed before Sun Lu Tang but I am pretty sure it was not written about before Sun.

I think that you are thinking of the Internal vs External debate. to the best of my knowledge Sun Lu Tang started all that. He studied Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, and Baguazhang and as a way of making them seem superior he labeled them as "Internal" from what I understand. That is why we today view those styles as the big 3 internal styles. I don't think this catagory existed before Sun Lu Tang decided to say that it did.

I hope that helps.

[ittokaos]

Oh and BTW, regardless of how good James Cama is/was, that performance was ridiculous and horrible. I dont study that style of mantis that he does(Jook Lum?) but I have seen Jook Lum performed and it don't look like that. Maybe it's a spazzy newer form or maybe he was just messing around but no bueno.