The Key

[Ultimatewingchun]

FRAT ???? What does this mean?

[anerlich]

F*** Reading All That.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha!

[m1k3]

You all may laugh behind your keyboards, but remember Master Mazza used those techniques to submit one of his opponents in the recently held Extreme Kickboxing event in NJ.

Only one problem. The only record of the Extreme Kickboxing event is only Mazza's website. I live about 5 miles from Camden and the school I train at competes in just about any event and.....oh.....sorry dude, I must be kind of slow tonight.

[k gledhill]

You all may laugh behind your keyboards, but remember Master Mazza used those techniques to submit one of his opponents in the recently held Extreme Kickboxing event in NJ.

You all demand MMA success as proof of legitimacy, and hold Alan Orr's students' successes in MMA sans head shot low to mid level events up as the legitest of the legit. Yet you ridicule Master Mazza's achievement of exactly the same thing.

Want to see hypocrisy incarnated? Go to the mirror, take a good look, then hang your heads in shame.

Alan doesnt do head shots ? I thought he was doing mma...?

[shawchemical]

Wing Chun is a specialized close range standup striking system, and needs some major adjustments (and additions) to make it viable at all standup striking ranges in today's world.

No it doesn't.

The fact you think it needs additions is indicative of something entirely different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, its not semantics, it's about the intent of the movement. What you guys are talking about is a motion that is used to enter that isn't INTENDED to be the attack, but rather a means of paving the way for the attack.

The thai knee isn't thrown in that way. It isn't intended in that way. The leg checks are not done in that way. They are not intended in that way.

How long did you train in muay thai again? Because the last thing we need is a bunch of chunners arguing semantics about a system they know nothing about...hell most chunners don't even know about their own system as evidenced by the ongoings in this very forum.

Well, I trained MT for about 5 years (3 civilian 2 in the army) and competed and had a 8-2 record ( amateur), I also competed while in the army, why do you ask?
I think you need to re-read my posts and understand that they were directed at someone that said that flying knees don't work, hence the link I posted to 10 flying knee ko's in MT and MMA.
To say that MT doesn't use the flying knee as an entry is wrong, again, ANYTHING can be used as an entry.

[YungChun]

From what I've seen "the hop" move often has the effect of getting the attention of the opponent in the venues seen and as often used..

In some of those vids I see the opponent's focus often drops to the low line for a (long) moment, surprisingly more than once (and even when the attack stays low (second action kick)) they don't seem to know what to do...

But it buys the hopper guy some time to close..

This is similar to the way the karate guys used to do the move but they wouldn't typically be distracted by such a move esp from way outside and would more use it to jam in closer....

[t_niehoff]

Alan doesnt do head shots ? I thought he was doing mma...?

In some amateur MMA events, they do not allow strikes to the head. While Alan and his guys have participated in some of those, they have also participated in regular MMA events (where strikes to the head are permitted).

As usual, Nerlich misses the point (actually, I don't think he really does, it's just that he doesn't want to acknowledge the point) -- Alan's group is doing what any of us need to do if we want to develop decent fighting skills: their training like modern fighters. And that means seeking out and sparring with their WCK against solidly skilled people AND cross-training with good, proven fighters.

[Wayfaring]

Alan doesnt do head shots ? I thought he was doing mma...?

I think that's the local rules they are dealing with. Fights labeled "amateur" have no closed fists to the head, those labeled "pro" do.

He's got a handful of fighters that are on amateur cards, and like 3 or 4 on pro.

I think there are a few states in the US where this also is the case with rules for MMA bouts.

[SAAMAG]

Well, I trained MT for about 5 years (3 civilian 2 in the army) and competed and had a 8-2 record ( amateur), I also competed while in the army, why do you ask?
I think you need to re-read my posts and understand that they were directed at someone that said that flying knees don't work, hence the link I posted to 10 flying knee ko's in MT and MMA.
To say that MT doesn't use the flying knee as an entry is wrong, again, ANYTHING can be used as an entry.

I asked because it seemed as if you are likening it to Cheung's method. My understanding is that Will Cheung's knee distraction was taken from Karate. That's not from me that's from a TWC that a WC colleague of mine conversed with. But not to digress from the immediate conversation..

A flying knee or kick is generally advocated to be done as the opponent is moving backwards, and preferably against the ropes. This would imply it is done as a means of follow up. It is also a medium range weapon, not long range, hence it's not used to close the distance from long to short range because Thai's don't throw attacks that aren't intended to hit their target and cause damage.

If you learned it as a means of closing the distance, you didn't learn it the way the Thai's teach it. American Muay Thai is not the same as authentic Muay Thai. Guys might learn the thai kick and the knee and elbows, but then proceed to punch like boxers, come up with their own defenses, and their tactics in general aren't the same as traditional thai boxing either...as evidenced by your statement. The best way to learn muay thai...is from a Thai or in Thailand.

But I understand what you're trying to say...that an any attack will gain you entry and close the distance. That's true. I'm just making sure that you're not saying that's what the Thai knee actually is or intended to be. Far from it. Cheung's little knee up hop step is in no way, shape, or form, anything close to what a Thai's flying knee is. Not in physical makeup, not in power, not in intent.

Let's not digress any further....and please people....let's stick to things we know about, shall we?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Vankuen, you are generalizing a tad to much with the "American MT" thing.
I learned MT from one of the first MT guys here in Toronto AND got to train a few times with Surai Chai ( Or however you spell his given name) and while I never trained in Thailand when I visited there from Macao ( I was over there for 9 months), I did see how they trained.

In one of his seminars Chai himself said that every attack is an entry ( can be used to bridge if you want a WC term).

And while I am not a fan of Cheung's entry ( It's done too far, leaves you open to a low kick counter, leaves you on one leg for way too long, etc.) you need to realize that sometimes things get "lose in the translation" like your post here:

A flying knee or kick is generally advocated to be done as the opponent is moving backwards, and preferably against the ropes.

If you notice the clip I posted with the mulitiple flying knee KO's you will see many of them used VS a stationary or forward moving opponent, especially in MMA.

Does that mean your post is wrong? No, it means that there are MANY ways to skin a cat and some can be the opposite of what one THINKS is the best way.

[SAAMAG]

Vankuen, you are generalizing a tad to much with the "American MT" thing.
I learned MT from one of the first MT guys here in Toronto AND got to train a few times with Surai Chai ( Or however you spell his given name) and while I never trained in Thailand when I visited there from Macao ( I was over there for 9 months), I did see how they trained.

In one of his seminars Chai himself said that every attack is an entry ( can be used to bridge if you want a WC term).

And while I am not a fan of Cheung's entry ( It's done too far, leaves you open to a low kick counter, leaves you on one leg for way too long, etc.) you need to realize that sometimes things get "lose in the translation" like your post here:



If you notice the clip I posted with the mulitiple flying knee KO's you will see many of them used VS a stationary or forward moving opponent, especially in MMA.

Does that mean your post is wrong? No, it means that there are MANY ways to skin a cat and some can be the opposite of what one THINKS is the best way.

I get what you're saying Paul, and I don't disagree that any attack can be an entry. That's why I clarified the finalized point with my last statement. I disagreed that Thai's use the knee as a distraction or an entry as a distraction.

But I don't think I'm over generalizing at all with the American or western muay thai. You see it in every muay thai gym, and every kickboxing gym where the guy claims to teach muay thai and while they're throwing elbows and knees, they're not doing it the Thai way. Your examples in the video actually confirm the generalities about western muay thai versus traditional muay thai. The flying knee against stationary and forward moving targets is generally done with westerners. Not the standard nak muay from Thailand. That's what I was saying before. Can it be done? Sure. Is it done that way in Thailand? Rarely. Is is the way real Muay Thai is taught? No. Part of that is because of the risk / reward ratio and the points system and judges.

Either way...time for my afternoon session. Be back in an hour or so.

[Wayfaring]

Vankuen, you are generalizing a tad to much with the "American MT" thing.

Also, don't forget there is a very strong contingent of MT taught in Europe. The Dutch MT systems have produced many champions, and is a little different than the "authentic" Thai MT.

The MT I've encountered has been an American version (Mo "Doom" Williams based), a Dutch trained instructor, and a Thai trained instructor. While all have some different flavors, I wouldn't discount any one of the three from my perspective as sub-par instruction.

I also have seen some MMA schools in an effort to get ANY MT instruction in there have instructors that did a little amateur boxing and 6 months of MT.

[SAAMAG]

Also, don't forget there is a very strong contingent of MT taught in Europe. The Dutch MT systems have produced many champions, and is a little different than the "authentic" Thai MT.

The MT I've encountered has been an American version (Mo "Doom" Williams based), a Dutch trained instructor, and a Thai trained instructor. While all have some different flavors, I wouldn't discount any one of the three from my perspective as sub-par instruction.

I also have seen some MMA schools in an effort to get ANY MT instruction in there have instructors that did a little amateur boxing and 6 months of MT.

No doubt that they're effective. No one is saying otherwise. But Muay Thai is Muay Thai. There are other iterations of it but there's only one original. The original does it a particular way...the Thai way.

And yes, unfortunately most of the Muay Thai in MMA facilities is grade school level. Then again it is Mma. Mixed being the predominant word. So they're not claiming to be an MT facility. They proclaim a little of everything...which is understandable.