WC teachers would have nothing to teach if...

[MysteriousPower]

If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don't teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that "look" like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, "I can't teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can't teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out."

The logical question that follows should be, "Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?"

The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.

[LoneTiger108]

Wow! I see T has a new fan Each to their own and all that.

Was this a discussion, or just your point of view?

[Vajramusti]

If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don't teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that "look" like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, "I can't teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can't teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out."

The logical question that follows should be, "Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?"

The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know your teacher.Why use a broad paintbrush?

joy chaudhuri

[MysteriousPower]

I am not a fan of T per say(don't know him) or a fan of his incessant rants. But I see some truth to what he is saying.

In this technological day and age it should be pretty easy for one or some of you to post a video of traditional methods creating fighters. This is not a video challenge but a mere criticism. Otherwise all the traditional guys are just talk talk talk.

Seriously, to all wc people: just put up a video. That's all it would take to silence the critics. The fact that few have is telling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen, the premise of this thread may apply to some - but far from all. Won't speak for other lineages, but in TWC there are numerous drills that are used. You do the forms, you do some double arm chi sao, and then you start working various drills designed to simulate real fighting/sparring...and then you spar.

Once in awhile you do the wooden dummy...and then more drills...and then you spar.

What drills? All kinds of very fight specific stuff.

He throws a straight lead punch to your head...
To your body...
He throws a straight rear hand punch...
He throws both in combination...
He hooks...
He hooks off the straight lead/jab..
He throws two hooks...
He throws low pounches...
He throws roundhouse kicks...
Front kicks...
He throws punches and kicks in combination...
You blatantly attack...
You attack and he counters...
You counter his counter...
He tries to shoot for your legs...
You defend...
Elbows...
Knees....

And a good 75-80% of your time is spent with these kinds of drills and sparring...and no more than 20-25% is spent with forms, chi sao, and wooden dummy.

[LoneTiger108]

Seriously, to all wc people: just put up a video. That's all it would take to silence the critics. The fact that few have is telling.

Lets say that we have the clips.

Lets say that it shows things being trained that have never before been seen in Wing Chun.

Lets say that all the students have no interest in fighting in competitions.

What use are they to you?

Seriously, to have to prove anything to people who are not willing to discuss, meet and touch hands or even spar with me is a waste of my time (and yours!) This is why I feel that there are no clips. A lack of respect for what we do imo and no willingness to really find out either.

Why should we show anyone outside our own four walls how we train to fight? The MMA world must be running out of ideas if they're pressing us for some knowledge!

Show me any boxing coach that will share that information with their opponents coach??

[MysteriousPower]

I am trying to keep things civil until T, knifefighter, and frost(the supposed mma badboys) come and butcher the thread.

This thread is mostly about wc teachers. In teaching the traditional way an instructor need not have any real skill. They never have to get " on the mat" so to speak.

Anyone one can teach fake drills and look good because they have been doing that drill for years. Real skill would be skill in being able to strike and/or possibly throw an aggressive opponent without getting your brains beat. That is basic. Skill is not doing a drill for so long that you become good at that drill.

[Vajramusti]

I am trying to keep things civil until T, knifefighter, and frost(the supposed mma badboys) come and butcher the thread.

This thread is mostly about wc teachers. In teaching the traditional way an instructor need not have any real skill. They never have to get " on the mat" so to speak.

Anyone one can teach fake drills and look good because they have been doing that drill for years. Real skill would be skill in being able to strike and/or possibly throw an aggressive opponent without getting your brains beat. That is basic. Skill is not doing a drill for so long that you become good at that drill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mysterious Power- one size does not fit all. There are wc sifus who teach forms, drills, san sau,
chi sao, gor sao, show real applications and also with the famous label- with resisting opponents.
if someone is not learning much they can get a different sifu or try a good teacher in a different style. i "spar" too-ofcourse not for 12 rounds!

joy chaudhuri

[Kansuke]

I am trying to keep things civil until T, knifefighter, and frost(the supposed mma badboys) come and butcher the thread.

This thread is mostly about wc teachers. In teaching the traditional way an instructor need not have any real skill. They never have to get " on the mat" so to speak.

Anyone one can teach fake drills and look good because they have been doing that drill for years. Real skill would be skill in being able to strike and/or possibly throw an aggressive opponent without getting your brains beat. That is basic. Skill is not doing a drill for so long that you become good at that drill.

So, skill would be judged by the ability to demonstrate that skill in a real-time, unrestricted manner?

[LoneTiger108]

one can teach fake drills and look good because they have been doing that drill for years. Real skill would be skill in being able to strike and/or possibly throw an aggressive opponent without getting your brains beat. That is basic. Skill is not doing a drill for so long that you become good at that drill.

I Agree 100% as most boxing coaches I met back in the day only trained in the army, they had never competed.

Same can be said for most WC Sifus I think.

The problem I have with what you're saying here is that only real skill in fighting comes from fighting. Personally I think that's a croc of cr4p and designed to justify why people leave the Wing Chun behind in favour for the 'matt'.

Basically, they may have never been shown any skill whatsoever by their Sifu, or became disillusioned, or simply just had no interest in learning a Chinese Martial Art in the first place.

[wkmark]

If wc sifus did not teach forms and other classical ways they would not have nothing to teach. If they taught in a way that gave skills like the way T just described this would force them to actually have to do something. Since they don't teach real fighting they can sit on the side and instruct, teach imaginary techniques that "look" like they fit in the form, show basic hand drills, never explain or show how to actually use anything in combat, and finally make vague statements about fighting and martial arts in general. My old teacher used to tell me, "I can't teach you how to survive fights the way I have. I can't teach my mind set. I can only show you patterns and you need to figure it out."

The logical question that follows should be, "Then why the fuk are you claiming to be teaching combat and claiming that wc is for combat?"

The above statement goes for all form oriented martial arts/teachers.

I think what your sifu meant is that he can show you the skills and the drills, etc. But it's up to you to learn to apply them and see what works for you. Things that work for your sifu may not work for you because of size, weight, height difference.

Also, there is a Chinese saying for learning Kung Fu: First Courage, then Power, then skills of your Kung Fu.

Courage cannot be taught to you. You need to learn that on your own.

[LoneTiger108]

Courage cannot be taught to you. You need to learn that on your own.

Or they had no courage!

Or brains.

Or heart.

[MysteriousPower]

I think what your sifu meant is that he can show you the skills and the drills, etc. But it's up to you to learn to apply them and see what works for you. Things that work for your sifu may not work for you because of size, weight, height difference.

Also, there is a Chinese saying for learning Kung Fu: First Courage, then Power, then skills of your Kung Fu.

Courage cannot be taught to you. You need to learn that on your own.

I know that's what he was saying but at the same time I think it's a cop out for teachers so they don't actually have to train their students to learn fighting skills. If teachers trained their students like fighting coaches than the above statement would make more sense but many do not.

There are some who will say that a Sifu is not a coach and he just leads a horse to water. That it's up to us to drink. Instead of being coaches they become drill givers. "Let me give you a drill for x. Here is how you train body structure...but you have to learn how to use it.". Honestly, I say forgo all the bs drills and skip right to the showing how to use.

Sifus should be coaches or they are short changing their students IMO. Or a Sifu should admit that he does not know how to train fighters to actually fight and not jst drill. It's misleading and dishonest.

[t_niehoff]

I am trying to keep things civil until T, knifefighter, and frost(the supposed mma badboys) come and butcher the thread.

This thread is mostly about wc teachers. In teaching the traditional way an instructor need not have any real skill. They never have to get " on the mat" so to speak.

I'll try not to butcher your thread.

You are correct, the TCMAs traditional way of learning/training is broken into two parts: the curriculum and using that curriculum (fighting or application). Anyone who knows the curriculum can teach it. But knowing it doesn't require or mean that you can use it to any significant degree. And this is why you have millions of people who know the WCK curriculum (including the masters and grandmasters), and almost none of them can use it to any degree (or the things they can use are very limited -- like front kick and chain punching).

Anyone one can teach fake drills and look good because they have been doing that drill for years. Real skill would be skill in being able to strike and/or possibly throw an aggressive opponent without getting your brains beat. That is basic. Skill is not doing a drill for so long that you become good at that drill.

The reality of the TCMAs, including WCK, is that the overwhelming majority of its practitioners don't really want to be fighters and/or develop significant fighting skills. The ones that do go and train with fighters. For the rest, WCK is a live action fantasy game that they play with like-minded people.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Sifus should be coaches or they are short changing their students IMO. Or a Sifu should admit that he does not know how to train fighters to actually fight and not just drill. It's misleading and dishonest." (MysteriousPower)

***Now this is true. Wing Chun should not be about teaching students forms, chi sao, wd, and drills - and then telling them to go figure it out for themselves if they actually want to be able to fight with the material. If you're not actually teaching people how to fight with the system and providing a training method and environment to develop fighting skills...

you're not a sifu, imo.

Now my money says that we're going to get about another 100 posts over the course of 10 pages saying the same thing in countless ways, yeah?