Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?

[TenTigers]

wow, that's all yo could come up with?
(TT is tactfully utilizing child psychology to lure Sanjuro into posting as many sexy nun pics as he can..heh-heh-heh. He will never suspect this, because of the subtle methods TT uses.)




(TT is also speaking in the third person...another clever tact....or something)

[sanjuro_ronin]

wow, that's all yo could come up with?
(TT is tactfully utilizing child psychology to lure Sanjuro into posting as many sexy nun pics as he can..heh-heh-heh. He will never suspect this, because of the subtle methods TT uses.)




(TT is also speaking in the third person...another clever tact....or something)

Don't know why, but I feel compelled to post more pics...

[chusauli]

I read the article in the recent magazine on "Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?" - the article featured two of the late Master Hsuan Hua's disciples and very qualified to comment.

Wu Seng are probably not real monks - some may have received the 3 refuges, and the 5 precepts, and basically, they are laymen in robes and putting on a show that they are monks. Especially by drinking and eating meat, as well as being married, they show they are not monks in deed.

Much of this is to sell their Shaolin Wushu.

[LFJ]

Wu Seng are probably not real monks - some may have received the 3 refuges, and the 5 precepts, and basically, they are laymen in robes and putting on a show that they are monks.

by "real monks" i assume you mean fully ordained heshang, by that definition wuseng definitely arent and need not take more precepts.

rather than them "putting on a show that they are monks", the problem is people make a lot of assumptions and dont really study shaolin culture.

Especially by drinking and eating meat, as well as being married, they show they are not monks in deed.

they shouldnt be expected not to, since they dont necessarily take any such precepts.

Much of this is to sell their Shaolin Wushu.

the class of wuseng in shaolin has been around for centuries (recently revived, previously sengbing- monk soldiers), longer than the local shaolin school has been on the block "selling their shaolin wushu".

its a matter of history and tradition that few bother to research and attempt to understand.

if any act like monks, when they are not, its the biaoyanseng- performance monks. but in this case its their job to act like monks.

shaolin worldwide seems to have had another class of monks for some time now, jiaheshang- fake monks! which country does not have someone claiming to be shaolin monks/disciples now?

[GeneChing]

...but I don't claim to be a monk by any means. The problem lies in the jiaheshang, but that can be broadly defined. To some, it's just those who denigrate Shaolin by posing as monks but not acting like monks. This gets to be really sticky when you examine the wuseng as there is a longstanding tradition. However, when wuseng are out drinking, cavorting with women, etc., well, there's a longstanding tradition of criticism of that sort of behavior too. It's a uniquely Shaolin problem.

[LFJ]

okay, i'll make a new term to clarify, zicheng heshang, self-proclaimed monks (having no basis for their declaration).

[Scott R. Brown]

While such discussions are interesting, each person is responsible for themselves and to nitpick the behavior of others is to forget that the action taking place within our own minds is what we are responsible for NOT the actions of others.

When Master Yuan was walking down a street of butchers a monk with him was astonished and said to him, "Don't you see the butchers!" Master Yuan replied, "Indeed I do, however you are 'seeing on top of seeing'!"

Good monks, bad monks, pretend monks are all distinctions that bind one to delusive views.

Attending to ourselves is more important than attending to others.

[Chan Quan]

Yes, the Knights Templar are the closest thing I could think of as a western equivalent to the Shaolin monks. You can even make the argument that like the Templars who were wiped out by their benefactors, modern-day "monks" are not what they claim to be.

More importantly, Gene, what does it mean to be a disciple as opposed to a practicing Buddhist? Are there any monks in the U.S. who are also Buddhist monks of the type that can be seen in other Ch'an, Mahayana, or Theravada traditions?

I will purchase a copy of your book this month and immerse myself in the goodness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The order of the Templar knights was indeed, "wiped out": which means that just changed their name ( the survivors).
The Teutonic Knights in Germany and the Order of Christ in Portugal are but 2 examples.
I would equate them to the Shaolin monks though.
Shaolin Monks were Monks that happened to do some MA, very few of them by the way.
The Templar were warriors that became monks and the order was 100% military.

[GeneChing]

As disciple vows, the difference is the martial angle. Becoming a disciple is common in the martial arts outside of Buddhist traditions. It's a Confucian thing, deeply embedded in Chinese culture. Anyone can become a disciple. You just need to find a master to agree. So many martial artists have become disciples of wuseng strictly on a martial level. For example, I know a Shaolin disciple that is Christian, and only took vows under his Shaolin master for the martial arts. At my disciple ceremony, we did bows to Guanyin, but it was clearly stated that we were taking vows under Shi Decheng to be martial disciples, not Buddhist disciples. Of course, as the vows are taken in Chinese, many disciples don't really know what they are saying, which is kind of ironic, so they misinterpret their disciple vows as taking Buddhist refuge. This adds to the confusion. I took my Buddhist vows separately at Green Dragon Temple here in California.

As for Buddhist monks in America, there are scores of them in every tradition of Buddhism. We're the great American melting pot after all. If you mean that specific to Shaolin monks, there are a few. One of the monks that I am currently training under says he keeps his vows of abstinence and remains robed. I'm just getting to know him, so I can't validate that as of yet. There are others. It's sort of case by case, as many have officially disrobed (like the other former monk I train under). Others continue to don robes but have given up their vows. That happens at Shaolin too, not just in America.

I hope you enjoy my book.

[chusauli]

Wuseng might be a Shaolin tradition when it was necessary to have a small army protect the temple and its possessions/land. That has been outdated, especially in today's China.

In today's society, it makes for confusion.

If they are a monk, a real Heseng, they undergo the vows and maintain the precepts.

No meat eating, no alcohol, no women, no exceptions, even if Emperor Li Shi Min proclaimed meat and alcohol to celebrate. The 3 refuges are followed more than the Emperor's proclamation.

The bald head, wearing of robes, all lead to confusion.

And today so many people play dress up with the monk's robes for $69.99 plus socks, tax and shipping.

They should wear layman robes and precept sash, not those of a monastic. Its very simple.

[RenDaHai]

When talking with my Masters here the terms Wuseng and Hesheng are not so important.

We say 'ChujiaRen' which means someone who has left home. They are the only ones who get a measure of respect on principle. They have given up aspects of their life before, and follow principles of altruism, and asceticism. They don't need the things you and I need. These are the real 'monks'.

I don't think any of the ones living outside shaolin can call themselves shaolin wuseng. They could get away with saying they are ex monks I suppose....

But even within Shaolin, 'Chujiaren' are very few.