Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?

[Chan Quan]

Yes, the Knights Templar are the closest thing I could think of as a western equivalent to the Shaolin monks. You can even make the argument that like the Templars who were wiped out by their benefactors, modern-day "monks" are not what they claim to be.

More importantly, Gene, what does it mean to be a disciple as opposed to a practicing Buddhist? Are there any monks in the U.S. who are also Buddhist monks of the type that can be seen in other Ch'an, Mahayana, or Theravada traditions?

I will purchase a copy of your book this month and immerse myself in the goodness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The order of the Templar knights was indeed, "wiped out": which means that just changed their name ( the survivors).
The Teutonic Knights in Germany and the Order of Christ in Portugal are but 2 examples.
I would equate them to the Shaolin monks though.
Shaolin Monks were Monks that happened to do some MA, very few of them by the way.
The Templar were warriors that became monks and the order was 100% military.

[GeneChing]

As disciple vows, the difference is the martial angle. Becoming a disciple is common in the martial arts outside of Buddhist traditions. It's a Confucian thing, deeply embedded in Chinese culture. Anyone can become a disciple. You just need to find a master to agree. So many martial artists have become disciples of wuseng strictly on a martial level. For example, I know a Shaolin disciple that is Christian, and only took vows under his Shaolin master for the martial arts. At my disciple ceremony, we did bows to Guanyin, but it was clearly stated that we were taking vows under Shi Decheng to be martial disciples, not Buddhist disciples. Of course, as the vows are taken in Chinese, many disciples don't really know what they are saying, which is kind of ironic, so they misinterpret their disciple vows as taking Buddhist refuge. This adds to the confusion. I took my Buddhist vows separately at Green Dragon Temple here in California.

As for Buddhist monks in America, there are scores of them in every tradition of Buddhism. We're the great American melting pot after all. If you mean that specific to Shaolin monks, there are a few. One of the monks that I am currently training under says he keeps his vows of abstinence and remains robed. I'm just getting to know him, so I can't validate that as of yet. There are others. It's sort of case by case, as many have officially disrobed (like the other former monk I train under). Others continue to don robes but have given up their vows. That happens at Shaolin too, not just in America.

I hope you enjoy my book.

[chusauli]

Wuseng might be a Shaolin tradition when it was necessary to have a small army protect the temple and its possessions/land. That has been outdated, especially in today's China.

In today's society, it makes for confusion.

If they are a monk, a real Heseng, they undergo the vows and maintain the precepts.

No meat eating, no alcohol, no women, no exceptions, even if Emperor Li Shi Min proclaimed meat and alcohol to celebrate. The 3 refuges are followed more than the Emperor's proclamation.

The bald head, wearing of robes, all lead to confusion.

And today so many people play dress up with the monk's robes for $69.99 plus socks, tax and shipping.

They should wear layman robes and precept sash, not those of a monastic. Its very simple.

[RenDaHai]

When talking with my Masters here the terms Wuseng and Hesheng are not so important.

We say 'ChujiaRen' which means someone who has left home. They are the only ones who get a measure of respect on principle. They have given up aspects of their life before, and follow principles of altruism, and asceticism. They don't need the things you and I need. These are the real 'monks'.

I don't think any of the ones living outside shaolin can call themselves shaolin wuseng. They could get away with saying they are ex monks I suppose....

But even within Shaolin, 'Chujiaren' are very few.