Solo vs. Partner Practice

[dimethylsea]

So here is a question for everyone.

It can be taken as a given (at least to me) that without partner practice of some kind fighting skill is very unlikely to be gained.

Now let us distinguish between great martial skill/ability and skill at gungfu, especially internal gungfu.

For instance.. Fedor is (obviously) far far far better than I at administering a beat-down under virtually any reasonably fair rule-set or situation one would care to name.

That said.. Fedor (great man and martial artist that he is) is not a Taiji practitioner (as far as I know).

So martial skill =/= skill at a specific style.

Can you become good at internal gungfu while doing only partner practice?

And if not.. if solo practice is needed to develop the gungfu (I think it is).. what is the ideal ratio of solo to partner at the various stages of learning?

[KTS]

u can gain a lot of strength through solo training. most types of strength training, specific skill trainings that can increase your martial ability can be done solo.

to apply them, it is best to work with a partner in drills and sparring.

with just the skill training alone, u can probably be a decent force regardless of much partner training if u have that kind of mindset and have some previous experience.

sparring and drills/partner training are certainly a must IMO. they provide valuable experience, and i doubt a person can become good at the martial part of martial arts without having fought or sparred.

anyways, solo training is important, as u are not going to be able to spar with someone at every moment u wish. at those times, you hit the bag, you train skills in forms or with various tools.

so, only partner practice, i would lean towards no a bit - in the case of internal boxing. there are some skills that u have to first understand before you can work with them. and solo training gives u not only time to train things that u may not otherwise train on an opponent, but also reflect. and, power training is best not done on your sparring buddies either.

btw, i dont feel a need to see an either/or here. both can compliment eachother.

[dimethylsea]

KTS,

You said "solo training is important, as u are not going to be able to spar with someone at every moment u wish. at those times, you hit the bag, you train skills in forms or with various tools."

What about training shenfa? I mean.. a hypothetical MMA guy could learn a Taiji form and be able to kick alot of arse but is it Taiji?

Seems like he would be hitting the bag, using tools, could even do a form etc. What's the difference between that and "high level Taiji"? It can't just be effectiveness in KOing people right?

[KTS]

oh u know this answer!

shenfa...

well, it is that distinguishable difference between seeing a guy just grab and toss a person and seeing sticking, adhering, and toss based upon the specifics of a particular art. that degree of body and mind usage implimented based upon the training would indicate the type of shenfa.

it is like 2 glasses of thirst quenching beverages. one filled with an iced tea, the other with lemonade. both quench your thirst, have the same objective and base ingredient(water), but both are uniquely different. and within those differences are also grades of quality. man, some good tea will bust a guy!
does that answer our question?

of course, there is a chance i dont even know what i am talking about. :P

[Skip J.]

well, it is that distinguishable difference between seeing a guy just grab and toss a person and seeing sticking, adhering, and toss based upon the specifics of a particular art. that degree of body and mind usage implimented based upon the training would indicate the type of shenfa.

Remember most taiji students are in their 60's or older before they start learning in a senior center environment; they haven't got a clue what you young guys are talking about. They come for their weekly class and learn the beginning form as best they can, and that is all. They get the health benefits they came for and are happy campers.

However, a few of us do wish to learn a bit of the martial also, and progress on a bit further. After the very small amount of push hands I took; I am sure that some sort of 2 person practice suited to the particular taiji school is necessary to develop martial "skills". The devil is in that word "skills".... most taiji students are learning some martial movements and postures, whether they know it or not. In a self-defense situation, they could fall back on a basic peng, or lu, or kao because it's in there somewhere. But since they don't know that, they probably would not resist at all. Because of that reality, my instructor only teaches them to step back (lu) and run if they can. Of course, the few of us that want the good stuff; she teaches us to the extent we can learn.

Still, without any more push hands or other 2 person practice someday; I will never learn any ma "skills" myself. On the other hand, my self-defense would do with most situations. And at 61, I've got a few more years left in me to chase that particular rainbow.

[Bob Ashmore]

I would like to address these questions asked by dimethylsea:
"a hypothetical MMA guy could learn a Taiji form and be able to kick alot of arse but is it Taiji?"
No. Tai Chi Chuan is much more than coreography. Outward movements are only the very beginning. If he is not using internal methods then what he is doing is hard style prettied up to look internal, not Tai Chi Chuan.
Effective? Probably. But not TCC.

"What's the difference between that and "high level Taiji"?"
You can beat the heavy bag all day long, you can lift weights until your muscles are ready to pop, you can jab and spar, jink and jive for days...
You're not doing TCC. TCC is an internal art, so external "muscle" training is of little value to it.
In fact, they are quite the opposite of what TCC really is all about.
Yang Cheng Fu tells us: "Use intent rather than force". From this you will see that all the force in the world is useless when it comes to doing TCC. You need intent, not brute strength, to reach the high levels of the art.

[Skip J.]

I would like to address these questions asked by dimethylsea:
"a hypothetical MMA guy could learn a Taiji form and be able to kick alot of arse but is it Taiji?"
No. Tai Chi Chuan is much more than coreography. Outward movements are only the very beginning. If he is not using internal methods then what he is doing is hard style prettied up to look internal, not Tai Chi Chuan.
Effective? Probably. But not TCC.

"What's the difference between that and "high level Taiji"?"
You can beat the heavy bag all day long, you can lift weights until your muscles are ready to pop, you can jab and spar, jink and jive for days...
You're not doing TCC. TCC is an internal art, so external "muscle" training is of little value to it.
In fact, they are quite the opposite of what TCC really is all about.
Yang Cheng Fu tells us: "Use intent rather than force". From this you will see that all the force in the world is useless when it comes to doing TCC. You need intent, not brute strength, to reach the high levels of the art.

Well said Bob;

Very well said indeed, my compliments! I do no bag work, no weights, no sparring, just walking, miles and miles and miles of walking in taiji relaxed posture...

[KTS]

i can agree with much of what is stated.

heavy bags are extremely handy though. i have used them for not just striking, but as a weight(the 100+ lb heavy bags) for training structure. of course that is nothing compared to a live partner in push hands, but it can add a somewhat substantial resistance on your frame and can aid in the developement of certain skills.
i also believe that hitting a target with a fairly substantial amount of force(more than u can hit a partner with) is almost a necessary beginning stage that one has to move past.
i say this because, a beginning student has to be able to differentiate between raw strength and mindfully used force, or "percieved force." there is a huge difference, but one has to start somewhere and go through the stages of developement. just my opinion.

[Skip J.]

i can agree with much of what is stated.

heavy bags are extremely handy though. i have used them for not just striking, but as a weight(the 100+ lb heavy bags) for training structure. of course that is nothing compared to a live partner in push hands, but it can add a somewhat substantial resistance on your frame and can aid in the developement of certain skills.
i also believe that hitting a target with a fairly substantial amount of force(more than u can hit a partner with) is almost a necessary beginning stage that one has to move past.
i say this because, a beginning student has to be able to differentiate between raw strength and mindfully used force, or "percieved force." there is a huge difference, but one has to start somewhere and go through the stages of developement. just my opinion.

Nothing wrong with that... for a person with a CMA background like yourself.... a good CMA background leads a person younger than 60 to learn taiji quickly I've often observed... if they can slow down for it.

But for those starting after 60 or 70 or 80, it's just not in the cards....

[No_Know]

Solo Practice is Knowledge.
Practice with a Partner is Awareness.
Losing or Failure is Wisdom.

No_Know

[uki]

everyone else is an outward reflection of ourselves, therefore, we really don't train with a partner, only with ourselves.

with some semblence of seriousness... all things have their place - it is good to train alone and it is also good to train with a partner.

[Dragonzbane76]

with some semblence of seriousness... all things have their place - it is good to train alone and it is also good to train with a partner.

as much as it hurts.... This is a true statement.

you need both. you can't just do one and expect the 'pieces' to fall into place. An equalibrium is needed between defining yourself (alone) and extending yourself (pair).

[kfson]

I'm not very familiar with the "harder" styles- Shaolin and the like. The higher levels of the internal style reaches into aspects of the mind that becomes less physically mechanical but still requires a partner for testing.

Bluntly, this is reading your opponents mind for immediate combative intentions and even remotely manipulating your opponent physically. I think solo and partner practice go hand in hand... maybe 75% solo, 25% partner.

How can one really understand the physical and mental form without understanding the nuances of the singular application... doesn't this take a lot of partner practice?

[kfson]

everyone else is an outward reflection of ourselves, therefore, we really don't train with a partner, only with ourselves.

with some semblence of seriousness... all things have their place - it is good to train alone and it is also good to train with a partner.

I agree with you in a way. Where I don't agree is, in this realm, we are not a "complete" manifestation. We are something like a fragment manifestation. So we need each other to help fill the lacking... we practice together to learn about the complete manifestation.