Tai Zu Chang Quan - info?

[Skip J.]

Here's one of the best explanations I've seen that matches how the opening movements of Taizu Chang Quan operate (and links it to how internal martial arts operate):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

Hello Sal;

I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the "enemy" before "settling in" to the posture.

However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.

Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening "leading" him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice...

My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.

Still, well done!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hello Sal;

I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the "enemy" before "settling in" to the posture.

However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.

Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening "leading" him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice...

My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.

Still, well done!

Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.

He doesn't advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).

He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.

If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:

http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html

Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he "gets" it from his insights and experience?

[Skip J.]

Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.

He doesn't advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).

He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.

If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:

http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html

Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he "gets" it from his insights and experience?

Ah well, maybe 15% of the movements I have learned so far incorporate a roll back as an intregal part. In watching him on his website - thanks for the link by the way, he's a cool instructor I must say - anyway; he is much more comfortable with letting the opponent slide by, and then starting his movement.

After his study of all 3 major internal "arts" and coming from the fighting experience of his previous external systems.. I would say he has intuited from each a contribution to the particular area he concentrates in. I noticed 3 or 4 different movements besides the roll back where he emphasizes an unusual movement. In someone less well trained in many systems, you mite say he would pick and chose what he liked and dropped the rest. But in his case, kinda like Bruce Lee, he advocates cutting away what doesn't work in the real world, and teaches the rest as worthwhile knowing.

For instance, in the pushing video, he gets up very close - more like an external attack style; but then he pushes with his entire body weight, a very taiji-like principle.

Sal, you mite try this thread over on the taijiquan forum. Those long-term guys over there know their stuff.

[bawang]

hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge

Yes, he's using KF technique.
It's in Shuai Jiao, it's in Fanzi Quan, it's in Shaolin, it's in Tongbei Quan, etc., etc.

The trick is to be like a bull fighter, lead the attacker on towards you and then never let the "bull" make contact as it is forced to pass you out of its range, from the side or rear you can attack them with no counterattack.

That's how a bull fighter stays alive against a raging bull.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

In the early 80's I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on Shaolin's basics of evading armed attackers. Evading is both core and an advance part of
Shaolin.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

In the early 80's I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on the basics evading in Shaolin in relation to fighting armed attackers. Evading as both core and advance part of
Shaolin.

r.

Cool, I might have that issue.

Read your Dragons of Shanghai book by the way. Fantastic book!

I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins).
Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading.

Starting with Western Boxing really helps people understand the concept and move their bodies correctly in preparation for Chinese MA.
Of course the way I teach Western Boxing is much more internal oriented.

Started with boxing as in high school and later had lessons with Frank Allan (he wanted to say that he coached a relative of Tony Canzonieri, the 1930s / 40s world champion). he also teaches Bagua, XY, and TJQ.

Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting.
Shuai Jiao was originally based on Gou Ti, which was a type of bull fighting.
Opponents wore horned helmets, it didn't take long for evasive fightwork and so on to develop from that! Do or die! From this Shuai Jiao developed, which has a strong influence on Shaolin's development.
Shuai Jiao (wasn't called that back then) was a major component of ancient martial arts.

Shaolin Luohan Quan has much in common with Shuai Jiao. Once my Shuai Jiao teacher and I went posture by posture in some Luohan Quan sets and did the Shuai Jiao equivalent to them. They match very well.
Bagua of course is firmly rooted in Shuai Jiao and Shaolin Luohan.

[Skip J.]

....I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins). Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading.......

....Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting.........

In this months issue of Gene's excellent print magazine, Master Helen Liang has a wonderful article on the "Taiji 13 Postures". While all of them are in there - Lu - roll-back - is well explained. In the opening pages she says ..."lead the coming force into emptiness" and "use four ounces to neutralize one thousand pounds".... very much what Mr. Ralston is demonstrating......

On the third page under Lu - Roll Back she says " Lu involves using the hands to roll back and neutralize the coming force or make your opponent lose balance. However, when applying the technique of Lu, it is not enough to use only the jin of your arms and waist, as this may only work on beginners. To make it fully effective, the coordination of footwork is required. When you are applying Lu on the left side, your left leg must step back ( houtui) and your body must turn slightly to the left ( zuogu). With a right-hand-side Lu, your right leg needs to step beck while your body turns to the right ( youpan)."

[Eugene]

I have seen the article of Taizu Chan Quan, and my head if stuffed with amazing info.

Shi Heng Jun teatches Taizu Chan Quan in Frence I believe, is there maybe because on you tube Shi Heng Jun shows it half, a performence by one of his french studens on you tube ?

I am a fan of Shi Heng Jun`s performence of the Taizu.

When it says Long Fist boxing, or long range, does that mean maybe many moves with stretched arms ?
And for the long range, maybe it is usefull agains a weapon ?

Eugene

[GeneChing]

A search on 'taizu' coughs up nearly 50 threads. And I'm sure there are more. It's a highly discussed topic here. I'm merging your post with this thread, which is one of our more recent ones and has a lot of video links.

One of these days, I should merge more of the taizu threads together...

[shaolinche]

This Tai Zu Chang Quan is Er Lu. There is also an Yi Lu, but I don't have a video of it I can post as of yet. There is also an Er Lu Dui Da (two man).

This is a rare Tai Zu Chang Quan form, that I have not seen anywhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRr7j2J8Vk

[Sal Canzonieri]

This Tai Zu Chang Quan is Er Lu. There is also an Yi Lu, but I don't have a video of it I can post as of yet. There is also an Er Lu Dui Da (two man).

This is a rare Tai Zu Chang Quan form, that I have not seen anywhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRr7j2J8Vk

Yeah, I posted that link before.

I never saw that form before as well. That lineage has 4 TZ sets.

Don't know much about this lineage, it doesn't look related to anything else I've seen.

[Eugene]

Could be that this link was up here somewhere but I just came across it on You Tube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLDG4...eature=related

Look from 0:54 and he starts Taizu,

Gr. Eugene

[David Jamieson]

hey remember these old clips?
lol!

this is from some film back in the 70s or 80s

this clip has a bunch of the hard gong training.
check outthe locks and dumbell training on the jongs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb7BSEuIiKk

[Eugene]

Another link,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkEW6...eature=related

Shi Heng Jun, learning his disclipels