Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

[Sal Canzonieri]

r.

ps sal and LFJ
here is that crossed and palm crossed palm yinxiang (印相) again
first photo, second row.

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

[LFJ]

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

[r.(shaolin)]

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

First of all I do not disagree, this kind of gesture does have applications and can appear in the middle of sets as well. In our school we have this as well.
However "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手) this name suggests a salute as you say.

This crossed wrist/male/female hand salute (skill/method enforcing wisdom) is a kind of mudra/salute (yinxiang 印相) called 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin) I believe. This yinxiang 印相 can be used to greet one's teacher or other students as well (施無畏印相). Actually the meaning and history of this gesture is more complicated than this.

r.

[LFJ]

This crossed wrist/male/female hand salute (skill/method enforcing wisdom) is a kind of mudra/salute (yinxiang 印相) called 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin) I believe. This is yinxiang 印相 can be use to greet one's teacher or other students as well. Actually the meaning and history of this gesture is more complicated than this.

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

[r.(shaolin)]

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

re: http://www.bennyfan.com/photos.html

That's right. There is both a right; a left (used by bodhisattva guardians) the one we use mostly; a right and left; and a crossed version which is possibly 伏魔印 connected to Vajrapani 金剛手菩薩. I'm looking for the characters for these.
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

re: http://www.bennyfan.com/photos.html

That's right. There is both a right; a left (used by bodhisattva guardians) the one we use mostly; a right and left; and a crossed version which is possibly 伏魔印 connected to Vajrapani 金剛手菩薩. I'm looking for the characters for these.

We also use the yinxiang 印相, of 甘露王 Gan Lu Wang Buddha (seal of Calmness-Buddha calms a charging elephant. This is also is a kind of 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin.
r.

[LFJ]

Or what about Kan Jia Fist.......I love this form...awesome real life defence apps..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBagR6tKQ5k

A 10,000 word theises on this perhaps??? Sal , LFJ......

Amitofo
Master Shifu Brett Russell

kanjiaquan? how about a 1 word thesis?

"liuhequan"

compare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQEP54fBMuU

[r.(shaolin)]

Posted by Shifu Xing Wu
There are also many variations of the forms, and some if many aren't documented.....

The interesting thing is, my Shifu, like most Shaolin Temple Masters[old school],not the display ones, . . ..
There are so many more lines of Traditional Shaolin Masters who left the temple,

good point.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

One interesting thing about these movements of this set is that they are essentially the same functionally and so on as Bagua Zhang's Single Palm Change. in fact, the whole first section is the first three palm changes, and most of the rest of the set has classic Bagua Zhang postures and movements.

[r.(shaolin)]

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

In imperial times it was by the opening (and closings) of the sets and the basics/fundamentals that exponents of a lineage recognized each other. The actual sets often varied between generations even from the same lineages and were not a good indication of relationship.

That cross hand '印' used by Shi Su Yun indicates that one time we had a common ancestor.

According to our older generations when the Shaolin school adopted sets from the outside they did two things: made changes to the form so that it did not contradict the basics of the school and secondly they added Shaolin yin 印 to the the beginning and end. Generally the original style salutation would also be left in. This created longer openings for some sets. During the modern period I believe many of these openings have been dropped. This why most of the Shaolin set today just begin after just a generic Buddhist 合十 合爪/合掌 gesture. As well what was passed on to us was that the 合掌 gesture was used only by ordained monks before the yinxiang 印相 of the lineage and laity and lay brothers 優婆塞 and sisters 優婆夷 did not use it.

r.

[GeneChing]

I've seen a folk master do a similar crossed forearm salute in a demo in Dengfeng. Unfortunately, I didn't get that masters name. I'm not even sure he was from Dengfeng. He may have just been visiting. I've seen a lot of Dengfeng demos and they all get blurred together.

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade. I've always done my Songshan Shaolin salutes like a namaste bow, which is how Shi Decheng first taught me. Yan Fei has been trying to transmit proper breathing at the beginning and ending of forms, so he shows the other students this way. He never comments on my namaste style (he has plenty of other stuff to comment on with me) but I'm rather attached to it. For me, the forms are very much a part of my Buddhist meditation, so I feel more connected doing it that way. Decheng was under Suyun too, but he never showed me that way of saluting.

[r.(shaolin)]

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade

Is there a pic of this?
r.

[GeneChing]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

That's my implied point in all this. We can study the minutiae of the forms, but ultimately, there's variation within each lineage, so it's really muddled research. Of course, now we have youtube and can make some comparisons. But those youtube vids are just snapshots. I've someone was to take a snapshot of Yan Fei's class, they might get the wrong impression. He might be doing something different than his master taught him in an effort to transmit a lesson. I do something different than what Yan Fei teaches me because I've had different input. Decheng does something different than this Suyun bow, possibly because he was connected to the Wushuguan for so many years and they probably standardized all of that for unity of their performances. It's tricky research, and in the end, might have no real meaning whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say that to discourage you in this research. In fact, I really enjoy reading it here. But in a typical Buddhist fashion, I wouldn't get to attached to it.

[r.(shaolin)]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

Hi Gene,
These breath sequences appears in the beginning or end of a number of our sets as well.
As you say "'raise your hands, palms up and inhale lower your hands, palms down, exhale'" or as some other similar movement and inhale followed by palms down, exhale'"
But these are not salutes.
r.

[GeneChing]

However, some of my classmates might think it is. And when they do it, just as a qi gathering exercise, I'm doing my gassho salute. I use that salute as a qi gathering movement to frame my form. So for me, it's a floor wax and a dessert topping.