taijiquan training - state park walking

[Skip J.]

you mean.... so much to remember...
10,000 years of experience and understanding can manifest in a single instant... time is a subjective construct based on ones personal perceptions.

Well.... you do have a way of bringing me back on track!!!

Thanks!

By the way, I see you changed your sig line... again...

[Skip J.]

Lake Raven: We went for our first trip of the year Friday and Saturday. It was cool and dry, some of the best weather all year!!!! We'll get up there again in March or April before it gets too hot and stuffy in the woods. We walked a quick three miles in the woods Friday afternoon and then went into Huntsville for dinner. The sun came out about 3pm and it got real hot the last mile or so. It just about killed us both...

Saturday we put in 5 hard miles up'n down before lunch, and the weather was cool. We had no problems at all like we did on Friday. There was one instance of hiding behind trees tho.....

At Home: We went out again here before dawn on Sunday for a few miles, with it clear and cool, great weather! We have been getting out on Sunday before dawn almost every weekend after walking 6 miles at the Houston duck pond on Saturdays. But...... since the week before Thanksgiving we have not walked during the week hardly at all... I've lost a few of the holiday lbs... but am still carrying at least 10 more than I started the holidays with.

In Class I am on the downhill slope learning the 32 and should finish the first run-thru soon. But it's only 5 months until the Dallas meet, so there's not very much time to learn all the details very well. This is going to be one of my rougher performances I suppose...

Between Classes: I try to do the form at least once every day, so I can learn something new the next class. It doesn't always work out that way tho... 2 or 3 days a week I can usually have a day where I do the form several times during the day.

Stairwalking: I try to do Bob's stairwalking at least once per day up'n down one flight. Sometimes I manage 2 or 3 trips. I can hold my hands out in peng and turn at the waist a little bit as I go up'n down, but no cloud hands as yet.

Progress: It's amazing, but Bob's "hip socket workout" is showing solid benefit in a very short time. A week or so ago, I noticed that my hips were naturally twisting more forward and back as I walked on the flat street with no effort to do so. This lengthens the stride while walking and greatly contributes to stepping out into a lower stance in the form. Sooo...., a regular hip socket workout promotes a lower, more solid stance. Then in the woods I noticed that it was happening there too, so my natural stride is lengthening in the up'n down process also, very cool!!!!

[kfson]

You're a little south from me. I head out to Gilmer and Lake of the Pines.

[Skip J.]

You're a little south from me. I head out to Gilmer and Lake of the Pines.

Hello kfson;

Actually, I grew up in South Oak Cliff, moved to north Garland, and then to Plano; before moving to Sugar Land in 1980. When I come up to compete in Plano in the summertime I stay at mom's in north Garland. As a life-long fisherman until 10 years ago... I used to know Lake o' the Pines well, as well as many other n. TX lakes. At least you're getting out to the trees, away from those muddy lakes around Dallas. It's gonna be awhile before those east TX lake rec areas degenerate from excess human impacts... One of the reasons we like it here is the trees, both in our yard and where we go to get away...

It has really been a major challenge to me to walk over the forest floor of constant tree roots without looking down - and while also being very relaxed - and not stumbling because of it. The shoulders want to tense up in anticipation of tripping and needing to prevent a fall; so to let it all go and still depend only on peripheral vision where I'm stepping is two opposite extremes.

Walking on wooded trails here is great, except that 9 months of the year it's just too hot and the air is too still in the woods to go. Maybe this is the year we start going during hot weather, but we never have yet...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I'm glad the hip socket workout is showing progress for you.
I, too, was flat out amazed by it when I first learned it. It really brought a lot of what I was missing in TCC out for me and since that time I teach it to all of my students. Universally it is the training that gets the most comments from my students, almost all good, as this is probably the single most forgotten part of the body by almost everyone.
If you want more "hip socket" training, there is only one place I know of to get the moves but good luck finding it! I have no way to get my hands on this at this time. I am currently investigating if it is still available but I have had no luck so far and I have a direct line with the person who created it.
I have a DVD of a Master Han Hoong Wang, Michigan Yang Cheng Fu Tai Chi Chuan Center Director, teaching the Traditional Yang Family 13 Posture Hand Form. On it, at the very beginning, Master Han (who I had the priviledge to meet at the Symposium in Nashville and who my mother is currently training with) teaches several "warm ups". I watched this part of the DVD when I first got it, probably eight or nine years ago, but then haven't watched it since as, in my arrogance, I assumed I was doing plenty of warms ups.
But about two or three months ago I had lost my DVD remote controller and so when I plugged in my DVD to get some clarification on the form prior to teaching a class for a friend while he went out of town (I mostly practice the 16 Posture Hand Form now when I do a short form, so I needed a quick refresher on the sequence) I was forced to watch it again.
I had an eye opener of epic proportions.
Master Hans "warm ups" are very, very good and include many of what my friends are now calling "hip wiggling" exercises that directly correlate to my "stair walking" movements, only on flat ground, as well as some stretches and warm up movements that I recognize as clearly coming from the Chen style warm ups I learned in Nashville (Master Han also teaches Chen style).
I now use Master Hans warm up set first thing every morning and I have never felt so flexible and limber throughout the day.
Just goes to show you, NEVER take your eyes off of gems like this!!! You never know what you will miss.

On another note, a student of mine went to China on a business trip lately. She has picked up my "hip wigglin" and when she came back she told me, all amazed, "You know those hip warm ups you taught me? They do them in all the parks in China before they start to do their form. But they do them for a LOT longer than we do, like twenty minutes."
That was good feedback for me.
Also, GM Yang Zhen Duo while on the stage at the Symposium also demonstrated a bit of what I call "hip wigglin'". He turned his back to the audience and did the hip rotations very quickly, to large applause.
There were a lot of people coming out of there asking, "What was that thing he did with his lower back and legs?".
I just grinned.
I think this is a pretty big piece of the TCC puzzle that I stumbled across through belly dancing.
No matter where it comes from, as long as you learn it it really does take you quite far.
The above mentioned student tells me that her Yoga has taken huge leaps forward since she has started doing the "hip wigglin'" as well and her Yoga teacher has asked her where she learned it.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
The more you know, the faster you will learn.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I'm glad the hip socket workout is showing progress for you.
I, too, was flat out amazed by it when I first learned it. It really brought a lot of what I was missing in TCC out for me and since that time I teach it to all of my students. Universally it is the training that gets the most comments from my students, almost all good, as this is probably the single most forgotten part of the body by almost everyone.
............................On another note, a student of mine went to China on a business trip lately. She has picked up my "hip wigglin" and when she came back she told me, all amazed, "You know those hip warm ups you taught me? They do them in all the parks in China before they start to do their form. But they do them for a LOT longer than we do, like twenty minutes."
That was good feedback for me.
Also, GM Yang Zhen Duo while on the stage at the Symposium also demonstrated a bit of what I call "hip wigglin'". He turned his back to the audience and did the hip rotations very quickly, to large applause.
There were a lot of people coming out of there asking, "What was that thing he did with his lower back and legs?".
I just grinned.
I think this is a pretty big piece of the TCC puzzle that I stumbled across through belly dancing.
No matter where it comes from, as long as you learn it it really does take you quite far.
The above mentioned student tells me that her Yoga has taken huge leaps forward since she has started doing the "hip wigglin'" as well and her Yoga teacher has asked her where she learned it.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
The more you know, the faster you will learn.

Hello Bob;

It continues to amaze me that any taiji training can have such "quick" results. Mostly, I train taiji for several years and then notice some "improvement" in practice. In comparison, hip socket workouts have made a lightening fast improvement to both flexibility and strength - which are usually two separate issues.... but not this time.

Check me out here and let me know if I'm way outta line.....

The hip socket rotation workout allows the hip to "flex" further forward than before, after about 6 weeks of workout. This lengthens the stride about the same amount, which happens while chi walking distances of several miles. When walking out in the woods like last weekend, there is the combined up'n down of the trail that makes use of the lengthened stride. Strength and balance are also increased by about the same amount.

When playing the form, I now step out into a deeper stance with more strength and balance than just a short while before. The velocity/momentum I arrive at the posture's stance is stronger, consequently I think this improvement is translating directly into a tangible increase in combat power.

Am I smokin' dope here????

Just one more comment and I'll finish.... when the hip comes more forward during chi walking due to lengthened stride, it also works out the turning at the waist - core - center - dan tien - considerably more than before. When walking 8 miles over 2 days up'n down in the woods last week - with a considerably lengthened stride over my previous several years of trips - I felt the dan tien getting a hardcore workout along with the hip sockets.

So this week, guess what? In addition to the improving combat power I've noticed in the past month in stepping out, suddenly this week I turn at the waist further and with more strength and balance. Sure enough, it seems that the momentum turning at the waist gives the hands right before meeting the enemy is enhanced by the stronger waist movement. Soooo..., this seems to add to increased combat power too...

What do you think?????

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I think you're hitting it right on the head.
This training has returned immediate, tangible results for everyone I have ever worked with on it.
The quickness of the results is a combination of the better understanding you now have of the waist/hip/kua combination and the increased flexibility and rooting inherint in the practice of using them, and your entire body, together in a coordinated and correct fashion.

Eddie Wu used to tell me, "You have to get your hip into it" when he talked about transmitting power. He did his best to show me what he meant.
Unfortunately I did not understand what he was telling me at the time. I THOUGHT I did, but it took me a LOT of useless flailing about before I finally "got" this and it took someone from a different discipline to teach it to me. I recognized what it was immediately upon feeling it, after all Eddie tried and tried and tried to teach me, but I was not ready at that time to hear it.
I should have listened closer to what he was telling me. He was pushing gold into my pockets but I didn't have the sense to understand what he was saying.

Ah, well. At least I figured it out...
Eventually.

Bob

[Skip J.]

Hey Bob;

Either I am wayyyy out in left field, or that is exactly how I "feel" about it, whatever that means....

After about the first year of a beginner learning what "turn the whole body, no independent arm or leg movements" means, we add in the "turn at the waist" as an additional detail, and stress that more as time goes on. As a practical matter, some beginners are ready for that at 3 months and some never are. Kinda hard to tell with folks in their 60's, and 70's, and 80's when they start.

In particular, we step into the posture, then shift our weight forward, then turn at the waist. When you can do this smoothly in flow, the hands and/or feet achieve a momentum that directs whatever combat power you can generate onto the enemy at the most efficient rate for that person. I have spent the last two years breathing into my dan tien and trying to direct that energy down into rooting. It's not easy and I'm not there yet. I sure can't maintain it while stepping out.

So I come to your method developing the combat power I can, envisioning landing the strike on the enemy, and developing the root I can so far. Kind of an advanced beginner maybe. Each increment developed and learned and implemented takes at least months, and years for most parts. While I may never be able to do what you do (I was a whole lot older when I started than you), still adding in another inch or two to my hip travel almost doubles the whole-body momentum normally generated by turning at the waist.

It's a two-part method. First, I step out further and faster with more power, and land lower and more balanced with more strength in stance. That's important for us old guys with less strength to start with. Then I turn at the waist, translating the combined momentum into the hand and/or leg movement and throw it another inch further with that side of the body. A serious velocity is achieved when the "posture" meets the enemy.

I mean, it's startling at first when you're not ready for it. It's kind of a "hey did I just do that?" moment....

I think I need to change the title of this thread to stairwalking....

Moving on, I'm going to see how this works and affects stepping backwards. Some of the more advanced rollback moves entail serious turning at the waist in dodging the enemy attack.... It strikes me that I can step back further, faster, and with more strength and balance than before... amazing...

[Skip J.]

Now there is an appropriate title!!!

Remember that Bob's hip socket workout while stairwalking is like this:

It is very much like exaggerating the movement of the upper leg bone in the hip socket during sink'n float to step out in taiji posture, or doing the taiji walk. Look at the sink'n float you already do this way, you stand on the back leg and sink down. This movement actually rotates the hip socket around the leg bone and behind it a little bit. The slack in your front leg provided by the sink of the back leg allows you to step out into the taiji posture with the front leg. If you are doing the taiji walk, then you follow it with stepping out onto the other leg. This works fine on a flat floor, or even better going downstairs... trust me on that.... All of the sink'n floats you do for whatever taiji practice - work the hip socket out a bit, even tho you don't think about it.

But, what is missing on the flat floor, or going downstairs is rotating the hip socket on further around the leg bone back to the front. Say what??? That's right, completing the circle of rotation of both parts around each other... then stepping out with the other leg and doing the same with it - over and over and over again. It's a killer, you better be in top shape, that is, your hip socket better be in top shape before you even try it.

And the way to train this secret method of the Masters???

Do it going upstairs.... stairwalking for short. Betcha can't do more than one flight of stairs at first. When you can do it, then hold your hands out in peng as you go up and do "cloud hands".

Surprise, surprise! In 6 short weeks you will increase your combat power considerably! You'll also be able to suddenly do some other amazin' things you never thought of...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
That is a good breakdown of what happens.
However, you are overlooking a vital part of the exchange.
That "move forward weight" moment is crucial to TCC combat.
Why?
Good question, I'm glad you asked.
First, let's look at the process of stepping.
Huh?
Yep, the entire process is involved.
I hope you understand that stepping in TCC needs to be deliberate, controlled, not hurried, not heavy.
To do this requires you to use all of the joints in your feet, your knees, your hips.
We'll stop there. You seem to have the waist movement down fairly well.
When you step, follow this sequence:
Step like you have no legs. You have this started, use your hips/waist/kua combination to step out.
Place the stepping (we'll go with a forward step here) foot on the heel, gently.
Move forward weight from the center, bend front knee slightly (front and back work together, one pushes, one controls, so use back leg to push, front leg to control while rolling the hips correctly to keep you from bouncing), bend ankle to let the ball of your foot touch the ground.
Bend knee a little more, toes grip the ground. This completes the rooting process.
Now, push with back leg, accept and control with front knee bending.

This is a breakdown, a way to learn all the seperate components. This should become smooth and integrated over time.

Again, this is only for the legs. The waist turn happens next, power is transmitted to hands.

But let's go back to the moving forward, bending knees slightly part, the stuff that happens before you launch yourself with the coiled energy in your back leg.
Why do you think this is crucial in TCC combat?

I'm going to let you think about that, as I'm crunched for time.
I will see what you think when I can get back, maybe tonight, most likely tomorrow.
Think about the timing of this, what are you doing with an opponent during this time?

Bob

[Skip J.]

When you step, follow this sequence:
Step like you have no legs. You have this started, use your hips/waist/kua combination to step out.
Place the stepping (we'll go with a forward step here) foot on the heel, gently.
Move forward weight from the center, bend front knee slightly (front and back work together, one pushes, one controls, so use back leg to push, front leg to control while rolling the hips correctly to keep you from bouncing), bend ankle to let the ball of your foot touch the ground.
Bend knee a little more, toes grip the ground. This completes the rooting process.
Now, push with back leg, accept and control with front knee bending.

This is a breakdown, a way to learn all the seperate components. This should become smooth and integrated over time.

Again, this is only for the legs. The waist turn happens next, power is transmitted to hands.

But let's go back to the moving forward, bending knees slightly part, the stuff that happens before you launch yourself with the coiled energy in your back leg.
Why do you think this is crucial in TCC combat?

I'm going to let you think about that, as I'm crunched for time.
I will see what you think when I can get back, maybe tonight, most likely tomorrow.
Think about the timing of this, what are you doing with an opponent during this time?

Bob

I am going to be thinking about this Bob; but I'm going to have to actually do it this way to figure it out - so I won't be back in here til this time tomorrow....

By the way.. we call this body mechanics... but I've not taken that workshop yet, so here I am.. fat, dumb, and well you get the picture...

Thanks again Bob!

I'm gonna be downright dangerous when I've got 22 years in... of course, I'll be nearly 80 then...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I am, unfortunately, pressed for time again today.
However, the stepping as I have described it is a "whole body" movement. It moves the weight of and roots your entire body in a single, fluid, controlled motion.
This allows you to do many things, but mostly it allows you to meet with your opponent (almost exclusively a Ward Off application), listen to them and sometimes offset them.
I am speaking of "listening" energy when I say "listen". This allows you to understand your opponent.
If you are already in contact with your opponent, you can use this whole body energy to offest your opponent, grip him, move him slightly, a combination of one or more of these things, or even "bump" him out if you are properly aligned with his center.
Many crucial things happen in this moment of whole body movement.
Unfortunately, it is often overlooked by the "health" crowd when they teach the art. I don't know if this is deliberate or simply a lack of understanding, but I cannot begin to tell you how many times I run into people who have only studied for health who do not even know this method exists in their art.

Not a condemnation, if they are not in this for the martial art then there may be no reason for them to know this.
I do not know if there is a "health" reason for this aspect of the movement, so I cannot speak to why it is usually not included in their instruction.

Bob

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I am, unfortunately, pressed for time again today.
However, the stepping as I have described it is a "whole body" movement. It moves the weight of and roots your entire body in a single, fluid, controlled motion.
This allows you to do many things, but mostly it allows you to meet with your opponent (almost exclusively a Ward Off application), listen to them and sometimes offset them.
I am speaking of "listening" energy when I say "listen". This allows you to understand your opponent.
If you are already in contact with your opponent, you can use this whole body energy to offest your opponent, grip him, move him slightly, a combination of one or more of these things, or even "bump" him out if you are properly aligned with his center.
Many crucial things happen in this moment of whole body movement.
Unfortunately, it is often overlooked by the "health" crowd when they teach the art. I don't know if this is deliberate or simply a lack of understanding, but I cannot begin to tell you how many times I run into people who have only studied for health who do not even know this method exists in their art.

Not a condemnation, if they are not in this for the martial art then there may be no reason for them to know this.
I do not know if there is a "health" reason for this aspect of the movement, so I cannot speak to why it is usually not included in their instruction.

Bob

Ummmm Bob;

I was going thru the motions - of the step out you describe above - this morning for my take a break taiji; and thinking about guessing what you meant.... then in sails your new post saving me from myself, one more time....

Actually, I was "focusing" on the transfer of rooting from the back foot to the front foot as that is where I'm floundering at the moment. So, I would have been close at least... I read of "listening energy", but without any 2 person practice, have no way to experience it myself.

I am fortunate in that my instructor does not hide the martial apps, even from the very first class. She'll make a lot of references to the health benefits of taiji with beginning students; but she has us putting our mind in our feet in beginning stance and stepping out, and our mind in our hands when settling into the posture. She'll never say she teaches taiji "as a martial art" because she would have to take a lot of expensive private lessons to learn the actual apps. But she says that the taiji is a martial art, several times during every class. The only time she mentions envisioning holding a ball or pushing a cloud is during warmups, and then only with beginners. And here is the best part.... me and her and her instructor and everyone in every class is there for the health part; theres' not a martial guy or gal in the bunch and never has been as far as I know. Sooo.. I am a lucky guy and I know it!

Now I have heard of instructors who hide the martial apps, or don't know them themselves..... but have never experienced that myself.

Where was I? Oh yeah, the step out process you describe is the same in total as we learn. It's these little details you provide that are so, ummm, well detailed. I can see that by breaking the process up into all those parts (that) it requires you to think about them separately as you step, thereby leading to the rooting while stepping process. The effect on combat power is that you have transferred the rooted stance of the beginning (horse stance) to rooting of the stance of the movement's posture as you deliver your hands on the enemy.

What the enemy is doing is moving towards you with evil intent, and is almost on you at that moment right before you meet him. That means he is over confident in his ability to conquer, he is between steps and not rooted himself and consequently easy to uproot with a ward off, or pull him on in the direction he's going with a roll back; and if you hit him with an elbow or shoulder, he's toast.

Here's another one of your "secrets" for the folks at home: rooting on both feet when in combat stance at the moment of impact is when it's important, not when you're in beginning stance before moving. This allows whatever combat power you have to be transferred to the enemy right at the moment he is stepping on one foot, off balance, and very not-prepared for it. It comes as a complete surprise. Reminds me very much of the old "Billy Jack" movies, which I was quite fond of.

[Skip J.]

As soon as I started rotating my foot as Bob describes above, my mind wanders into thinking of the judges on "Dancing with the Stars" always talking about "heel leads". Now I know what they mean.. I think.

The difference between this step and the normal TCC step-out is so minimal that very few could actually see the difference between the two. One of the reasons is that there isn't much to see; it's mostly in the mind.

The normal step-out begins with setting the heel down and then shifting weight forward to set the ball of the foot down firmly before turning at the waist and delivering whatever the hands are doing.

Bob's ankle socket rotation clue he describes above, differs in that the ankle socket itself rotates the lower leg bone forward to pull the foot down onto the ground, providing velocity before weight is shifted forward, and then the foot grips the ground to continue to do so as the weight shifts forward with all of the added velocity. With this thought process involved, there is no doubt that the front foot is rooted and the stance is a well-balanced low 50-50 before the waist turns and brings the hands with it.

Mercy! I mean, is there no upper limit to what can be done to each part of the body to increase combat power???? Amazing... truly amazing...


Full disclosure: I can do the ankle socket rotation workout a little bit walking on the flat. After 6 miles Saturday and 2 miles Sunday, my ankles are singing loudly...

But... I cannot do them yet at the same time as stairwalking upstairs with a hip socket rotation.

And... after "energetically" walking like that with a longer stride from a looser hip movement, my hip sockets were singing loudly too.....

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
My advice would be to make haste a little more slowly.

You seem to be grasping the stepping pattern quite well though.
Yes, the idea is not to move your center forward all at once, rather in a smooth, integrated fashion as appropriate. This allows you to root before you ever need to issue jing.

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).

And for crying out loud....
SLOW DOWN A LITTLE!
It takes years to figure this stuff out, relax and enjoy it rather than pushing yourself to the point of pain.
Believe me, it will work a LOT better that way.