Luohan Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh,

I'll add something. I am currently in China and will be for the forseeable future. My master Shi Yong Wen was a student of Degen Da shi (and of wu shan lin, and of su xi and many other famous masters).

He wrote the first book on Luohan quan published after the formation of PRC (back in the late 70's). Many of the versions in DengFeng were simply learned form his books. It is the version as done by Degen Da shi. I cant speak for the version by shi guo lin but it is definatly much better than the version at Tagou (which i also know).

Anyway I am translating this book at the moment. It is rather short but contains the full luohan quan, and my master has the copyright and original retro photos. Anyway, does anyone know if there is a market for short books on forms? Does anyone know if a magazine like KungFu magazine would publish it in their magazine? Or would it be better to combine it into a larger compilation of all his books? I wish to help him publish his books for the west.

By the thanks everyone for your info on this thread... I WILL find this man and I WILL learn this version of luohan quan!

Can you give the Chinese characters for Shi Yong Wen and for the title of his Luohan Quan book? I made have it. I have just about every book in Chinese on martial arts concerning Shaolin, except for a few that I am missing.

[David Jamieson]

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?

[r.(shaolin)]

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?

In the context of Shaolin the term "luohan" is significant specifically in its relationship to the martial arts. Within context to northern Chinese Buddhism, the 'luohan' were guardians and defenders of Buddhism. In Sanskrit they are known as the Arhan/Arhat/Sthavira, 'the disciples of Buddha and the guardians of Buddhism. The Indian word means: "one who is worthy of receiving deference" In Tibetan Buddhism (dain i darughsan) their role is further clarified as “vanquishers of the enemies (of Buddhism)". This is why when the term, "Shaolin Luohan Quan" or "Shaolin Luohan Men" is use, what is being referred to is the martial arts of the defending monks of Shaolin Monastery.
cheers,
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's as many as I could find of Luohan style videos, if you find more to add, let me know and I will update.
By the way, Shaolin Quan was originally called Shaolin Chui, as was Luohan Quan originally called Luohan Chui, before the Qing Dynasty era.

Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - also called Xiao Luohan Quan in Dengfeng / Tagou school (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 First 60 of the 85 postures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (also shortened)

Da Luohan Quan (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai), first 30 postures of 85 in correct order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

Lao Jia (old frame) Luohan Quan (also called 3 Section Luohan) - Shi Deyang's version (this set often called Xiao Luohan today because it is like a summary of Da Luohan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - a modern times set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

Shaolin Luohan Quan 27 Postures:
(no videos yet)

Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan:
(no videos yet)

Related sets:

Shaolin Luohan Duan Da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vheDniwQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQDYU98FTTs

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Zhang - 18 PALMS not hands (very rare to see):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8qAFB8Wc

Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

Shaolin Damo (also known as Luohan) Shi Ba Shou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76m4-enGS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-Z4tiFkus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4YPOG8uvg

Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

Shaolin Xinyi Luohan Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbS0aXhvVGA

Unknown Luohan Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP91ZyILso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNCLIkcohA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWfj9zVU4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3mbYdVPDKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8OMqscdrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZljLs_gYIOs

Da Luohan Quan from Chan family Nei Jia Quan style (derived from original Shaolin Luohan Quan in Henan from the 1600s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjvN5U8tRc

Southern Shaolin - Choy Li Fut Luohan Pu Hu Quan (Fuk Fu Kune), the closest you can get to seeing what Luohan Quan might have originally looked like since Choy Gar is directly from Northern Shaolin, it is only two-three generations away from founder Monk Jue Yuan. Jue Yuan taught Yi Quan, who taught the founder of Choy (Chu) Gar.

[David Jamieson]

that's a lot of material.

I liked the Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou 18 Hands set after watching them all.

[LFJ]

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)

[Sal Canzonieri]

not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)

I learned this before I had the Shaolin Encyclopedia and it was done exactly like in Deqian's Encyclopedia. So, I was happy to see that. Then when I saw Deyang's version i was very confused. Someone decided to change it, I don't know why.

Well, the abbott is researching all the forms with the countryside practitioners (the old guys) and releasing books on the definitive versions. I have been getting most of them as they come out. His series is called A Compendium of Shaolin Quan

Also, a huge 2 volume work, thousands of pages, a Compendium of Shaolin Folk Boxing, is just out by one of the Liu brothers of Dengfeng that researched hundreds of the forms and compared how the Shaolin monks do the forms to the way the forms are done by the old folk Henan countryside guys.

Together these two efforts are revealing the original way the forms were done.

The abbott has a book on San Lu Luohan Quan that is completely ancient looking and far from today's junk.
His Xiao and Da Hong Quan were great, many corrections were made in parts that I have always questioned why. I think that they had found someone in Shaanxi that was doing the forms that oldest way and they learned from there.

[GeneChing]

I first learned Luohan from Yanming in a one-day seminar. I kept that for a spell, but eventually let it go because there was no one to coach me further on it. It mapped more or less on to the Luohan that was presented in Guolin's article series.

Funny story - Guolin wasn't that accustomed to being in a photo shoot where you constantly have to stop and do it again. It messed with his flow and he kept losing his place. By that time, I had forgotten Yanming's Luohan, but could still remember bits of it and could coach Guolin back on track. He kept insisting that I knew the form and trying to get me to show him my version.

I learned a Luohan again under my master Decheng. I really liked his version and I'm embarrassed that that I lost it. His was the most divergent.

I learned it again from Yanfei, who I'm training under now. He hasn't drilled me on it in months, so it's pretty rusty. I keep thinking I should pester him to bring that one back into our rotation, but only half of the class knows it and we have some newbies now, so he's focused on getting them up to speed. I really should dig that one out again and bring it back into my practice.

[LFJ]

We say it is mixed up as there is a lot missing plus he changes a few directions.

you're comparing two different sets.

For example the ban shou followed by xuan feng jiao. This is one move, you use ban shou to distract the opponant and prepare for the big kick, its a common combination, that saying xuan feng must be done in the same direction as the ban shou. Deyang turns back on himself eliminating the meaning. he compensates for this by spinning into bai fo.

actually in application of the move in laojia luohanquan you turn back the opposite direction after banshou to entice the opponent to come forward, at which point you launch the xuanfengjiao. it takes off in the opposite direction, but still hits the charging opponent.

the same strategy is used in mizongquan yilu, toward the end after banshou comes a tengkong bailian, then a chopping palm in the opposite direction, enticing the opponent forward when you've apparently turned away. then you catch them with the "hoist a flag in the wind" technique which snaps back at them. it resembles the ceremonial way the chinese throw out their flag to be raised up the pole if you've seen that.

[LFJ]

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it.

i reference it because you say master deyang mixed things up and made his own version and changed names. but its obvious he's not the only one who does these sets this way. "misinformation" also depends on what/who you tend to believe.

That move is in Mizong ER lu, at the end.

its taught as yilu by master deyang, before the other set that is erlu. even though the instructional videos have them named backward.

[LFJ]

the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak?

[sha0lin1]

Question for you guys. Is Chaoyang Quan and Zhaoyang Quan one in the same? Or are they two different forms?

[Sal Canzonieri]

the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak?

Well, its not done that way by the folk traditions and it is not done that way by old teachers here in US neither.

The changes mess up the integrity of the form, as far as I am concerned.

The secret to this form is that it is very much like Ba Gua Zhuang and doing the form the way it is done in Shaolin Encylcopedia (in my opinion the 18 Hands sets are the few accurate things in it) and by these others it follows with the movements in Ba Gua Zhuang sets pretty exactly.
it makes total sense to do movements that way, Deyang's video version destroys the flow and the applications. there are neck breaking applications that can't be done with the changes.

[LFJ]

I don't think they would have learned it from Suxi though, he was Nanyuan pai, and mainly taught Xiao Tongbei well. Plus he had already mostly stopped practicing by the time deyang would have become his disciple.

?

by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the "group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu", and published texts like "the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing". he was known as the "shaolin boxing king". his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the "young shaolin boxing king" for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.

Zhao yang quan is not actually Zhaoyang quan at all. That form is called gaunchao quan or tide watching form in english, and Deyang has changed it dramatically.

its the same "zhaoyangquan" in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Hmm, ok.

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.

I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
.