Feints

[AdrianK]

Who here practices Feints? In one of my old WC schools, not only did we never practice feinting, or responding to a feint, but people got mad whenever I did it in drills, Chi sao, even sparring

So does anyone practice feinting as part of their normal training? I think its pretty essential to know how to do it, and know how to respond to it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes. Because, for lack of a better term, I often "kickbox" my way in - and when up against another good striker/kicker - deception is important.

[Liddel]

Time and a place - Sure.

When trading - i use them to stifle the opponents timing, if i sence they are going to attack i fake a move like an attack or step, puts them on the defence...

and more importantly for VT peeps i use them in Chi sau related drills.

Poon Sau's a good place to start. It helps the guys where i train from being over sensitive early on, i move one hand and catch thier body with the other etc etc these things lend their way right through Chi Sau drills to Gor Sau and sparring for me.

Over sensitivity in VT can be a real bad habbit and its prevalent as sensitivity is a major part of VT training right through different lineages, so feints are important IME.

DREW

[Phil Redmond]

Who here practices Feints? In one of my old WC schools, not only did we never practice feinting, or responding to a feint, but people got mad whenever I did it in drills, Chi sao, even sparring

So does anyone practice feinting as part of their normal training? I think its pretty essential to know how to do it, and know how to respond to it.

I can't see training any martial art hand techs without learning how to deal with feints.

[k gledhill]

Feinting is actually a HUGE part of the WSL training...it gives us the reasons for not seeking hands with hands rather striking with arm angles that can intersect lines if they are THERE OR SUDDENLY NOT THERE...thoughtless to contact being made or not ...they are taught to focus on striking to the target ...letting the arms do their own responses from chi-sao training if they are stopped etc...
It can be a easy coaching method to get a beginner to focus on the 2 fold strikes job...hit the target and cover the strike line as it gets within distances of working ...
When an arm is extended by me to the student , they [many ] tend to see it as the
object of their focus ...a hand / arm ! must contact ...must use fancy moves !
NOT.

The 2 attacking techniques to a closed strike line JUT & PAK ....from a leading strike nearest the target relative to the arms angle/flank/movement relative to your strike lines positions ...

Jut , whether it juts or not stays on the strike line , rather than a lop that takes us off line grabbing laterally. Jut goes back and forth along the line ...miss you just keep firing.
by adopting X'ing blindside , flanks etc..the strikes will intersect POTENTIAL use of this.


Pak moves to the centerline but doesnt x it ...and strikes out from the line, parry or not. the control point is the elbow not the wrist, so you dont wave the wrist across the line with no elbow alignment control to the following strike etc..


Doing a simple xercise can show the student the impact and deflection of the strikes tan & jum as they try to both deflect my strike to them as they strike to me from an angle, say 45 deg. for a number...no precise #...

they are to either side of me ...not infront...they will learn the distance they need to be and angles to both strike me and deflect me with their forearm positions...either tan strike or jum ..depending how close that arm is to the intended target...one leads the other is in the rear...not 2 hands extended together across one arm...except for po-pai

they strike trying to keep both elbow in while striking my chest as a target they can impact with force...as they do the 1 st punch I punch to their line just to intercept their elbows position...usually it will come out and we either trade punches or they come offline and I hit them gently to show the elbow is out and they didnt hit me...
2 then they overconcentrate on the next attempt and elbow stays in but they dont strike ...then they strike again but forget the elbow ,...back to #1 response

then they get told to focus on the chest as the target AND keep elbows in they start to get the idea now...my arm is deflected offline as they strike me and defelct me...


To PROVE the exercise I ask the students to throw feints as well as counter strikes to check for overzealous arm chasing ...when they get caught their stance and intent can be seen to waver and there is no impact force because their minds focus where on the arm ...too much chi-sao with no impact defelection focus leads to this ....


dan chi introduces the 2 actions per strike tan strikes forwards while also generating lateral deflection forces ..2 lines of energy 1 strike
jum has the same 2 actions but strike with inward energy to keep a strike from countering or entering your line as you strike...
The focus is to make the initial positions tan elbow in jum elbow in the starting point and the recovery point for the following strikes in a fight ...

adopting tactical angles while facing and being able to use the square on ability of SLT to reach equally with2 strikes across angled positions , relative to the fight in progress...we strike without thinking about thew elbows...because we did that in training.


We can also feint when sparring by simply [for terence] removing our arms from the contact zone completely....as the student approaches you with strikes you take your arms away and see if they are attacking you or your arms...you can fight by simply not being where they are going ..subtle shifts offer arms ...take them away...leave them to check striking angles , facing ...attacking intent....step away sideways, backwards etc..randomly to see if they persist to attack or stop n watch

feinting is a great introduction to fighting along YOUR strike line focusing on the head/body line etc...

Developing sticky controlling wrist chi-sao will never produce this type of fighter....they will always seek an arm to control / trap etc...rather than have developed the strikes with 2 actions ...

a strike with 2 actions is acting as 2 handed attack ...the forearms become the hands the fist is striking in ...

Pak sao becomes the WHOLE inside or outside of your arm rather than the palm alone...think lateral force coupled with straight linear line

then combine the 2 arms capable of using this double energy as a facing shifting angling attack that can ALSO become a lead jut to an arm that stops and wont allow a deflection from a lead strike ...a pak sao that can clear a line that you cant simply strike through...etc...

The chi-sao takes on a platform of further developing this arm strike duality of energy ..never over sticking or doing more than one defensive action per response...trying to develop strikes for each other that can deflect as they strike or hold the line and negate
each others strikes in the center ....then the stepping and countering is introduced to add angling and facing the anglers movements ...all relative to the strikes ability , relative to your particular angle to them...

the resulting stance , balance , ability to strike with sufficient stopping force AND deflection angles are tested by adding feints too...all the time we allow a shot to show that even IF WE LET YOU HIT US CAN YOU EVEN HURT US AND STOP YOURSELF FROM BEING HIT IN THE SAME ACTION ? at close range repeatedly under pressure and with the added random entry from either side of an attacker or your counter ?

The system opens up as a systematic development of this idea from the very begining to the end...

The idea of front and center controlling etc....becomes redundant ..your development wont give you the strike ability...angling striking shifting striking , clearing thoughtlessly with arm in rotation...rather you want to lop n chop , pak trap and hit with no idea of a single arm that can act as BOTH yours ...

Its so simple but overlooked for sticky stuff or 3 move counters to an arm in the air.


It is a humbling experience to add feinting to guys who have done YEARS of sticky stuff...they havent got a clue about using an arm in close quarter fighting as a strike and deflection...they will always rely on their lead as a controlling action...

making the fight EQUAL both of you have an arm free and one engaged by grabbing etc....


if you develop the ability to have a simple strike act also as a parry , depending on given arm angles
/positions ....then you are developing the ability to deliver an attack for 9 out of 10 seconds

attacking is a science

[grasshopper 2.0]

yes, i agree! Feinting/fakes/etc are exposed right away in the lat sao programs. Gives the student some idea. Of course, feinting off no contact whatsoever should also be exposed too...knowing when to close in or not. To me, it's really hard and still needs lots of fine tuning.

[k gledhill]

oddly quiet on the T front ....

[t_niehoff]

oddly quiet on the T front ....

Well, I wasn't particularly interested in the thread.

[k gledhill]

not surprising ...

[t_niehoff]

not surprising ...

You find it surprising that I'm not interested in theory?

[k gledhill]

Its not theory

[Lee Chiang Po]

Fainting and faking are just a few methods of distraction. It works well for entry into an attack, and for getting you in close enough to gain control of an opponent. I am not sure what is meant by chasing hands, but a faint or fake strike can be like asking for a hand, and when the opponent gives it to you in an effort to block the blow, you take possession of it. Also, if he is preparing to attack you, a good fake will often stop that attack and put him on defensive against an attack that is not there. Then before he can recover you take advantage of him. There are tons of ways to faint and fake out an opponent. I would think it an important part of any style of gung fu.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeah,
I teach 4 standard feinting serieses which consists of about 15 or so techniques. In addition, I try to give some explanation to my students as to how and why these things work.

[k gledhill]

Feinting in training is used as a tool to mke the student focus on the target not the arm in the way of the target...
1st you have to be developing the striking lines along your centerline that both deflect entry to your center and strike forwards along the line , simultaneously.

Each arm has to have the capacity to strike using the outside edge and the inside edge of the arm...we use the low elbows , held inward as the SLT teaches .

as we progress to show the fighting aspect of using these strikes, we need to show that the intent of the VT fighter is to engage the fight without thought for being overly defensive and chase hands to stick or control, rather than allow the initial striking ideas to work.
To show good elbow / fist alignment strikes I/we use feints as a tool to show that the strikes are focused on the space of air in front of the target , rather than striking into the target ...so as the student sstrikes from angles and perimeter positions dictated by my position and arm used to strike..ie Jab or a cross....I suddenly remove the jab or the x to
see if the student keeps the strike line regardless of my actions, like putting a blank chamber in a gun during target practice, to see if the shooter is 'anticipating the 'bang/recoil' ....

It is a primary tool to avoid the sticking idea and over controlling the lead arm of the opponent.

Same in chi-sao, I can suddenly drop my bong sao from the space it occupies and show that the student is trying to strike my arm 1st not my head 1st....using their forearms to occupy my bongs position as a deflection ...coupled WITH their striking arm...

Same with sparring ..it carries over to simple removal [ blank] of my arms as the student advances into me to attack from whatever given angle is used...if they are focused primarily on my arms as the lead , I can remove them and the students balance , timing and intent are shown to be incorrectly aimed at my arms using their hands OFFLINE ...

OFFLINE movement from the centerline strike path along with flanking is shown by feinting and or simple removal of 'ARM BAIT' ...deliberately placing an arm in the way of an attack only to remove it the instant contact is about to be made...

Dan chi-sao introduces the feinting of each partner to show and prove the focus of the strikes and alignment rather than a redundant sticking , rolling to and fro action using wrists to deflect.....using the wrists as many do to block a tan strike , makes you drop your strike from the lead , rather than use the elbow to occupy the center entry area to your own line ....and be able to strike while using elbows/forearms etc...in a naturally displacing position....

Add angling of the strikes relative to the attempts of the oppponent to face you and they can 'cut' into available angles AS the opponents strikes come at you...we can strike with each arm creating natural barriers that STRIKE the STRIKES with counter angling , and body shifting to both be evasive while striking in distances close to the opponent ...yet not square on as chi-sao with 2 arms extended doing a redundant drill...

Shifting , striking , angling , relentlessly, in close proximity ...using the tactical directions of the knives to avoid being centere to an equally armed opponent .

water fight analogy....avoid the line of water being thrown BUT throw water back

The system takes on a more fluid relentless pressure attack that shifts and sticks to a fight like a shadow...flowing torrent of water attack...

[t_niehoff]

Its not theory

Sure it is.

But, I'll give you my experience with regard to feints.

Generally, in fighting you won't have the opportunity to or need to use feints. To understand why, you need to know what feints are for -- their tactical significance: they are used to create offensive openings. That presupposes two things: firstly, that you have the time to do that; and secondly, that your opponent is sufficiently skilled to not have any openings (so that you need to create some). Most fights, including "streetfights", that you encounter won't provide those two preconditions. In most fights, including streetfights, your opponent will be highly aggressive, and throwing relentless attacks so you won't have the time to feint (look at some youtube fights or some 'toughman competitions' for examples of what I mean). Nor if you do will they have any effect -- unskilled, aggressive fighters won't react but simply keep coming at you and attacking. And unskilled or poorly skilled fighters, particularly highly aggressive ones, have all kinds of holes so there is no need to set up your offensive action with feints.

Typically, feinting has not been a part of the WCK curriculum-- it's not in the forms, the drills, talked about in the kuit, etc. And, that's because feints are not a big part of an inside game, and even less a part of an attached game. Feints mainly play a part on the outside, and then only when facing well-skilled fighters.