Mixing Wing Chun with a grappling style?

[t_niehoff]

What a load of back-tracking horse Sh1t! You most certainly did make this thread personal. Seriously... do you honestly expect people to buy that load of crap you just wrote?

Talk about theoretical nonsense! That sh1t might fly in the courtroom, but try telling that to someone on the street who's about to kick your ass.


Terence: I wasn't talking about you or insulting you, I was just saying it about your views.

Yeah... that'll go over real well.

Personal is to call you an idiot. To say that what you believe is silly is not personal. You can understand that?

But, let me be as clear as I can be since you seem to want to continue the coversation. I think HFY is silly, it is piles of theoretical sh1t set onto TWC and topped with a history right out of a comic book. It amazes me that anyone falls for it. But then again, PT Barnum knew what he was talking about.

So, I don't take the HFY perspective seriously, it is a joke.

I'm not going to seek out HFY people and if you leave me alone and don't try to enter into conversations I'm having, particularly by quoting me, to offer a HFY perspective, then you won't hearfrom me about HFY. BUT, realize that anytime you bring me into a converstaion (likeby quoting me), then I'll respond, and my response will be to say that I don't take HFY seriously, that it is a joke.

Don't want to hear that? Then stay away from me.

Believe it or not Terence, You are not the only one in the whole WC community that questions things. You are not the only person who challenges what he is taught. And you most certainly are not the only person who test's what he's learned with real resisting opponents.

I know you find that hard to believe, but get over yourself.

I know that I'm not the only one. There are some on this forum. On the other hand, every cultmember in the world believes he's not a cultmember. Every woo believes he has questioned things through. Don't try and suggest that HFY practitioners are critical thinkers who get out and regularly spar with competent fighters. If you guys were, you wouldn't be spewing the nutty stuff that you do.

[duende]

Then I'll be real clear too Terence,

You don't have the slightest idea of what is a joke and what is not a joke in the real world.

And for that I almost feel sorry for you.

Keep on posting your trash talk. When you want to experience life, you know where to find me.

[t_niehoff]

Then I'll be real clear too Terence,

You don't have the slightest idea of what is a joke and what is not a joke in the real world.

And for that I almost feel sorry for you.

Keep on posting your trash talk. When you want to experience life, you know where to find me.

Spoken like a true cultmember.

[duende]

Spoken like a true cultmember.

Is that also not an insult?

Or are you going to cowardly back-track out of that one too?

As for theoretical nonsense.

Tell me then, why did your Sifu Robert Chu use our HFY terminology for his article on Bai Jong, Jit Kiu, Chum Kiu, and Wu Ma??? Because he knew real information when he saw it!

Why did he release articles that for all intents and purposes echo previously released articles by us? Articles on the Wing Chun Punch, and on Wing Chun Footwork.

Because regardless of whether or not he knew about the HFY articles, he views these WC topics similarly.

Guess our non-sense must be your non-sense too!


Now here in this thread you talk about Chi Sau being a form of stand-up grappling that can be used for fighting at a clinch range.

This is what I've been saying for frickin years! That Chi Sau is for fighting at a certain time-frame. When for years upon years YOU said it was only a training drill.

So Terence, if I'm a cult member, then you are a wannabe cult-member kissing my a$$ so that you can join.

I'm done with this thread. Keep on strokin' yourself. I've got better things to do.

[t_niehoff]

Is that also not an insult?

Or are you going to cowardly back-track out of that one too?

HFY is a cult.

As for theoretical nonsense.

Tell me then, why did your Sifu Robert Chu use our HFY terminology for his article on Bai Jong, Jit Kiu, Chum Kiu, and Wu Ma??? Because he knew real information when he saw it!

It might surprise you to learn that some of "HFY terminology" isn't original -- that is was taken, like its forms, from other sources. So your terminology isn't exclusive to HFY. Bai jong, chum kiu wu ma, etc. were terms I knew 25 years ago, before I met Robert. Interestingly, I also learned the HFY forms (TWC forms) long ago too.

Why did he release articles that for all intents and purposes echo previously released articles by us? Articles on the Wing Chun Punch, and on Wing Chun Footwork.

What articles did HFY release that pre-dated his articles? Oh, BTW, Benny's punch article -- funny that, considering that Benny took a private lesson from Robert prior to writing that article and joining HFY, and he learned one point in Gu Lao, the punch.

Because regardless of whether or not he knew about the HFY articles, he views these WC topics similarly.

Guess our non-sense must be your non-sense too!

What you fail to point out is all the other piles of rubbish heaped onto the few things from legitimate WCK, your WCK formula, the gates, time/space/energy, saam mor kiu, and the list goes on and on.

FWIW, Robert's motto is "let application be your sifu" -- that is a rejection of theory. Theory doesn't teach you to apply your WCK. Experience fighting does.

Fighting isn't -- and CAN'T be -- that complicated. And that's why when you look at functional martial arts, you see they keep theory to a minimum.

Now here in this thread you talk about Chi Sau being a form of stand-up grappling that can be used for fighting at a clinch range.

This is what I've been saying for frickin years! That Chi Sau is for fighting at a certain time-frame. When for years upon years YOU said it was only a training drill.

Well, you've been wrong for years, because we're not saying the same things at all. And you don't understand what I've been saying. Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling." It is a artifical, unrealistic exercise that can be used to teach and practice some elements of WCK's method of fighting, which is a combination of striking and grappling.

Chi sao isn't for fighting and won't develop fighting skills. Nor does it have anything to do with a "certain time-frame." If you fought as part of your training, you'd see that.

So Terence, if I'm a cult member, then you are a wannabe cult-member kissing my a$$ so that you can join.

I'm done with this thread. Keep on strokin' yourself. I've got better things to do.

LOL! Dude, I recognized Benny and Garrett for what they were the minute I laid eyes on them back in '99. Two peas in a pod.

[duende]

HFY is a cult.

The opinion of a back-peddling hypocritical a$$. Keep on editing your posts btw...

It might surprise you to learn that some of "HFY terminology" isn't original -- that is was taken, like its forms, from other sources. So your terminology isn't exclusive to HFY. Bai jong, chum kiu wu ma, etc. were terms I knew 25 years ago, before I met Robert. Interestingly, I also learned the HFY forms (TWC forms) long ago too.

The context and the usage of the term in the manner that I'm referring to WAS at the time unique to HFY. As for anything you learned in 1993?? Big fricken deal. I have Sihings who learned HFY from my Sifu all the way back to 1977. Before TWC was even known in the USA.

and you're on crack if you think you learned our forms.

What articles did HFY release that pre-dated his articles? Oh, BTW, Benny's punch article -- funny that, considering that Benny took a private lesson from Robert prior to writing that article and joining HFY, and he learned one point in Gu Lao, the punch.

Gu Lao punch?? Really??? Now that is funny.

Go look a true Gu Lao punch. And then feel free to come back here and re-edit your post. Because this is silliest thing you've written yet.

What you fail to point out is all the other piles of rubbish heaped onto the few things from legitimate WCK, your WCK formula, the gates, time/space/energy, saam mor kiu, and the list goes on and on.

Sad for you that you consider this a pile of rubbish. Truly shows what an ignorant fool you are.

FWIW, Robert's motto is "let application be your sifu" -- that is a rejection of theory. Theory doesn't teach you to apply your WCK. Experience fighting does.

Yes, we've heard you say this a million times. Appears it is the ONLY thing you learned from Robert which is too bad.

Fighting isn't -- and CAN'T be -- that complicated. And that's why when you look at functional martial arts, you see they keep theory to a minimum.

more so-called wisdom from a poser.

Well, you've been wrong for years, because we're not saying the same things at all. And you don't understand what I've been saying. Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling." It is a artifical, unrealistic exercise that can be used to teach and practice some elements of WCK's method of fighting, which is a combination of striking and grappling.

Chi sao isn't for fighting and won't develop fighting skills. Nor does it have anything to do with a "certain time-frame." If you fought as part of your training, you'd see that.

More hypocracy and back-peddling. I'm sure you'll re-edit your prior posts to conform to this last paragraph too.

LOL! Dude, I recognized Benny and Garrett for what they were the minute I laid eyes on them back in '99. Two peas in a pod.

What other great wisdom did you learn from sitting on the sidelines and not will touching anyone's hand??

Truly sorry for re-joining this thread. Will leave if Terence is done talking smack.

[TAYLOR1]

Terrence,

Who are you? Your nobody. You don’t know HFY. You sit in your little chair hiding behind your keyboard.

You want to test your skill? Come test it in Phoenix, you arrogant little sh1t!

Btw, why do you constantly edit your posts? You can’t keep your nutty thoughts straight? Or do you constantly change your mind because you don’t know what your talking about? The truth doesn’t change but your words do!

[t_niehoff]

The context and the usage of the term in the manner that I'm referring to WAS at the time unique to HFY. As for anything you learned in 1993?? Big fricken deal. I have Sihings who learned HFY from my Sifu all the way back to 1977. Before TWC was even known in the USA.

People can claim anything. Too bad there isn't any evidence.

and you're on crack if you think you learned our forms.

I saw the HFY SNT at the VTM and I already knew it. When Garrett askedme what I thought of HFY I told him then that it looked like TWC with more theory.

Gu Lao punch?? Really??? Now that is funny.

Go look a true Gu Lao punch. And then feel free to come back here and re-edit your post. Because this is silliest thing you've written yet.

Well, Benny goes and studies with Robert, and learns the punch. He later writes an article talking about the "HFY punch". You say that the stuff in the article shows Robert took from HFY. I'm showing that it was the other way round -- Benny took it from Robert.

Sad for you that you consider this a pile of rubbish. Truly shows what an ignorant fool you are.

I'm sure the Scientologists feel the same way.

Yes, we've heard you say this a million times. Appears it is the ONLY thing you learned from Robert which is too bad.

That's not the only thing, but it may be the most important. But I can see why you don't like it: it is the bullsh1t filter.

more so-called wisdom from a poser.

You see, that's a personal attack. And I'm surprised you don't like wisdom from posers -- that seems to be all you listen to.

More hypocracy and back-peddling. I'm sure you'll re-edit your prior posts to conform to this last paragraph too.

No need to -- I'm sorry that your mind is so confused with theoretical nonsense that you can't follow simple reasoning.

What other great wisdom did you learn from sitting on the sidelines and not will touching anyone's hand??

Oh, this is an allusion to when I was at the VTM seminar. FWIW, I did participate in those parts that interested me (like Rene's and Marty's parts of the seminar). The one I opted out of was Benny teaching chi sao. There is nothing Benny could teach me.

Asfar as touching hands gfoes, I did chi sao with loads of people there (Jeglum, Rene, Dave, Dzu, etc.). In fact, Dave, Dzu, and I wereout of ont floor of the VTM until 2am training when wecaught Benny and his minions sneaking out to have a private lesson from Garrett. It was after that incident that I wouldn't play with Benny's guys anymore.

Truly sorry for re-joining this thread. Will leave if Terence is done talking smack.

Good. Then maybe next time you think twice.

[JPinAZ]

Disclaimer: this is not a reply directed toward T, so he doesn't need to apply.

Last post:

Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling." It is a artifical, unrealistic exercise that can be used to teach and practice some elements of WCK's method of fighting, which is a combination of striking and grappling.

Previous post:

WCK is to control the opponent while striking him. To control an opponent requires "grappling". Chi sao is "grappling". Lop sao is "grappling". Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.

Another previous one:

Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last post:

Chi sao isn't for fighting and won't develop fighting skills. Nor does it have anything to do with a "certain time-frame." If you fought as part of your training, you'd see that.

Again:

Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

Sounds like fighting to me...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then:

Chi sao isn't a "moment", it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.

But wait, that's not right either:

Grappling is being in contact and trying to physically manipulate your opponent to reach your objective. That's what wrestlers do, that's what judoka do, that's what sumo wrestlers do,and that's what we do in WCK -- except we add strikesto the mix. Chi sao is similar to a wreslter's handfighting.

and lastly again:

Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling."

Which is it, is it grappling and striking (fighting), or is it an excersize? Is it wrestler's handfighting or is it a useless unrealistic excersize?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh wait, one more time:

Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

and
Previous post:

Chi sao is "grappling". Lop sao is "grappling". Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.

Or, was it

...it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.

Is it an excersize that teaches useful fighting skills or unrealistic excersize?
Is it grappling or isn't it?
Is it for fighting or isn't it?
No wonder there's confusion...

[vingtsunplaya]

Ok, I'm going to say it one more time, but this time I'll say it DIRECTLY to the person to whom it applies: Hendrick, please don't waste space/time here with your posts unless you actually have something a) coherent b) on topic and finally c) in proper English. It really pi$$es us all off when we have to wade through your sh1t postings. Van Helsing? Really? Dracula, werewolves? Come on bro. We are talking about reality here. By the way, shall we start a thread about fighting while flying throught the air (like in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)?!?! That would apply to this conversation about as much as all that other sh1t.

As far as Terrance goes, I don't really know you bro, but you are really off base with what you are talking about. There are alot of people out there who respect Sifu Garrett Gee as being one of the true practitioners of Wing Chun in the world. There are many in China who respect the man more than their own Sifus. On the other hand, your Sifu doesn't exactly have the best "street cred" if you know what I mean. I say this as a bystander, but one who has seen a few things. I know a blow hard when I see one. You sir, are the hardest blower I have seen in some time (not to mention all of your hypocracy). But hey, if you want to keep spouting insults from the yellow brick road with the rest of the munchkins, go right ahead. It's not my a$$. Best of luck to you bro...

[Ned]

Disclaimer: this is not a reply directed toward T, so he doesn't need to apply.

Last post:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling." It is a artifical, unrealistic exercise that can be used to teach and practice some elements of WCK's method of fighting, which is a combination of striking and grappling.

Previous post:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
WCK is to control the opponent while striking him. To control an opponent requires "grappling". Chi sao is "grappling". Lop sao is "grappling". Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.

Another previous one:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last post:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao isn't for fighting and won't develop fighting skills. Nor does it have anything to do with a "certain time-frame." If you fought as part of your training, you'd see that.

Again:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

Sounds like fighting to me...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao isn't a "moment", it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.

But wait, that's not right either:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Grappling is being in contact and trying to physically manipulate your opponent to reach your objective. That's what wrestlers do, that's what judoka do, that's what sumo wrestlers do,and that's what we do in WCK -- except we add strikesto the mix. Chi sao is similar to a wreslter's handfighting.

and lastly again:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao isn't "a form of stand-up grappling."

Which is it, is it grappling and striking (fighting), or is it an excersize? Is it wrestler's handfighting or is it a useless unrealistic excersize?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh wait, one more time:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao is grappling with striking. Sustained contact is grappling.

and
Previous post:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao is "grappling". Lop sao is "grappling". Those drills teach you how to mix grappling (controlling) and striking.

Or, was it

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
...it is an artificial, unrealistic exercise.

Is it an excersize that teaches useful fighting skills or unrealistic excersize?
Is it grappling or isn't it?
Is it for fighting or isn't it?
No wonder there's confusion...

yeah.. spoken like an out of work St. L. lawyer with plenty of time to self-contridcit and blow!

[Mr Punch]

Last post:


Previous post:


Another previous one:

I'm not joining the debate: and I like T's views (it was his posting style that always ****ed me off)... but anyway, JPinAz: that post was ****ing hilarious!

[t_niehoff]

I guess when your head is filled with theoretical nonsense, you can't really grasp simple things.

When you do chi sao you are grappling but it is not some "form of grappling." There isn't such a thing as a "form of grapplnig" anymore than there is a "form of striking". You are either grappling, striking, or combining them (when you hold and hit, for example). Yes, Virginia, chi sao is grappling.

And chi sao, the exercise/drill, isn't training you to fight, As it is an unrealistic drill/exercise - as it is not done under realistic conditions- you can't develop fighting skills by doing it. You can LEARN to perform actions (grappling with striking thrown in), but since your partner isn't fighting you, you can't learn how to do those actionsin fighting. You are only learning how to do them in chi sao. Yes, Virginia, chi sai is an unrealsitic exercise.

So, chi sao is grappling, but it is grappling performed in an unrealsitic, artifical way. Yes, Virginia, chi sao is both -- it is grappling and it is an artificial drill. How difficult is that to understand?

And this is precisely why I don't want to discuss things with the HFY cultmembers -- they are so brainwashed, so used to not thinking (in a rational way), so caught up in their fantasy, that they can't grasp the simplest of things.