VTM Discussion\Black Flag Wing Chun

[SimonW]

Why is the myth of the Southern Shaolin temple still being perpetuated? And why is it that KFM keeps publishing this nonsense even though every serious scholar disproved it years ago (as early as the 1930's!)

Perhaps KFM would like to cross reference the articles it publishes and consult with people who actually know what they are talking about such as Stanley Henning, who I am sure would only be too glad to put things straight with real corroborated evidence.

I don't mind people making up martial arts styles. But please be honest about it if you are.

[t_niehoff]

And if you read the book I recommended,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=53691

you'll see that the whole Shaolin story is made up and not historically accurate. Why does the VTM continue to promote it? That's obvious: marketing.

[Chango]

Terence,

It is simply a position that one might have. It has been said many times on here that at one point there is no written word as to where wing chun came from . The book you have made reference to makes a very strong argument. But it's just that. one of many points of views on history. The function of this thread is to invite the community to come and experience and share what this lineage has to offer. If you feel differently that's fine I will personally extend a olive branch to you to come and share. If you don't like this format then by all means call the museum and see if you can set up a day that you can share what you have to offer at the VTM. Terence you have to realize you are my brother in martialarts and not my enemy and it's not my side vs yours. You may have a different point of view but it's all good. If that one point is a issue. I'm not that attached to it. My connection or friendship with you does not live and die on if you believe in the shoulin history or not.

That being said can we not turn this into a history debate threads that take us nowhere again!! Point is simple here. This Black flag lineage from experience is a great opportunity and if you can attend please do so. I know I will be there!

[t_niehoff]

Simon asked (directly above my post) why the Southern Shaolin myth was being perpetuated. I gave my answer. It's not being perpetuated as just another historical "possibility".

I've never said you were my enemy or thought of you that way. Introducing and showcasing various branches of WCK is great. And it can be done without all the attendant nonsense assoicated with trying to bolster historical myth.

And let's face it Chango, if the "Black's Flag" origin myth was the Ng Mui story, I don't think Benny/VTM would be asking people to come hear discussion on the history of the "new" lineage.

BTW, the reference to "the Third Hall of the Southern Shaolin Temple" - isn't that Benny's own concept.

[Hudson Li]

I see Meng's Martial Arts websites carry no more references to the Hung Fa Yi branch of Wing Chun anylonger and now the way the V.T.M. is promoting the Black Flag branch makes me believe the later is replacing H.F.Y. in Benny Meng's approach to W.C.

[Chango]

Hudson,

Your assertions are incorrect H.F.Y. and the V.T.M. have always been two different things. So at this point it is clear on the web site. This was a complaint by some in the past (****ed if you do! ****ed if you don't) We have promoted many different lineages in the past HFY, Chi SIm, TWC, Moy Yat, Ip Ching, Ip chun, etc.... This does not mean the VTM staff is converting. This is the function of the VTM. I do have to admit that I'm very impressed with what I've been shown so far. I have to also say that I've been very impressed some of the others I've seen. We live in a great time for Wing chun and I'm really glad that the VTM has provided me a place where I get to experience 1st hand from the top representatives all of the great lineages that have came and shared and represented their culture and methods.

Terence,

Once again this is not a debate. I'm sure you raise valid points however this simply is not the thread to do that in.

I get it you do not like how the information is presented this has been noted.

As far as those who have the Ng mui history. To this day we have hosted more masters with Ng Mui historical lineage then those with shaolin. All of them have been presented in a fashion that states their history as it is. Weather the VTM agrees with it or not.

As I said I offered you an open invite to present what you have. Make the arrangements if not then lets still move on.

As for the third hall concept please do not assume that just because you don't understand it or you're not aware of it that it does not exist or it belongs to the person who presents it. This concept is not Benny Meng's as you have put it. But once again I do not wish to see this thread hi-jacked with debate.

Are you going or not? if so it will be great to see you! If not then I hope the next time you can make it.

[Firehawk4]

It mentions something about Vikoga Wing Chun and Victor Leow , Malaysian Wing Chun , Yip Man Wing Chun and Something about Ho Yang Pai wich i think would be Ngo Cho Kun or Southern Tai Zhu . This is very confusing as i looked at the Black Flag Wing Chun History 3 or 4 years ago and what i thought was there history is what is at this website .I am confused .
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...engChunHistory

[Peter-Malave]

This workshop should be interesting. On their page here: http://www.blackflagwingchun.com/main.html Their talk is eerily familiar to the language the VTM has used in their articles on Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

an excerpt:

What is Black Flag Wing Chun Kung Fu ?


Fukien Black Flag Wing Chun Kungfu is a unique system that allows practitioners to express maximum efficiency toward an opponent's attack using the most economical means possible with the least amount of time, space, and energy. The focus of the system is to occupy the opponent’s space at the right time and to use our energy very efficiently.

This system originated from Southern Shaolin in Fukien. The creation of the system was due to the invasion and overthrow of the Ming by the Qing in 1644. The place they used to discuss the new hybrid system was called Eng Chun Tim (Weng Chun Dim), which meant “Hall of Forever Spring” inside the Southern Shaolin Temple. Many Ming loyalties, Senior Monks and Martial Art Masters, through their combined effort, ended up developing a new hybrid system as the essence of all advanced styles to be taught to secret rebellion warriors to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and preserve the depth of wisdom and knowledge within the Shaolin Temples.

What was created inside the 'Eng Chun Tim' in the Fukien Shaolin Temple goes beyond just new techniques, styles or concepts. From the Shaolin Temple in Fukien, this secret treasure was passed on to the hands of the Black Flag Secret Society as the gate keeper of the system.

We take the student beyond just learning the techniques of self defense. Students will have a chance to see and understand the paradigm of time, space and energy, starting by the understanding of the microcosm (own self/identity=Mind, Body and Energy), followed by understanding the macrocosm (Time and Space) and at the end, to achieve emptiness (Ngo Kek) where there is no more illusion of attachment. Everything becomes clear. These stages are referred to as "Sam chin sam tue" (Three stages of life/learning).

To harmonize your own energy toward the changes of time and space (Illusion of Attachment), one must understand the original Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun formula, such as:
1. Two Line of Offense, using Im-Yang Hand.
2. 3-Dimentional body structure, along with triangle point of ‘square’ body & stance structure.
3. Three vertical references of Heaven, Earth and Man.
4. Five lines of width (Two Shoulder line [Yang Line], Two Chest Line [Im Line], and Centerline).
5. Three bridge range of Heaven, Earth and Man.
6. Nine gates reference and four directions.
6. Wheel bearing body.
7. Impulse/shock Power Generation (Hoat Keng).
8. Internal Power (Nui Kang).
9. Blind Side Entry (Siam), Triangle (Sa Kak Bhe), 4 corner (Si Kak Bhe) and Zig-Zag (Goan Po) footwork.

I hope that after the workshop there will be some input from the attendees as to whether or not this is a coincidence. I hate to say it, but since the apparent fallout on HFY108 with Benny Meng I can only speculate that Hudson Li and Terence Niehoff's suspicions are correct.

Peter

[Hudson Li]

So now that Black Flag has a 'formula'... is anyone trying to capitalize upon H.F.Y.'s terminology? If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release.

[Peter-Malave]

So now that Black Flag has a 'formula'... is anyone trying to capitalize upon H.F.Y.'s terminology? If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release.

This is quite an interesting statement.

"If times were not so rough I would certainly attend both seminars H.F.Y. and B.F. just to collect all the information and counter information those groups will release."

While I can appreciate challenging and opposing views in intellectual discussions, I cannot appreciate collectors of information who engage in such politics as you are suggesting. Unless I am wrong, either you have no respect or integrity, or you are suggesting that the VTM doesn't. Are you being sarcastic? Too difficult to tell, and I'm sorry if I'm being offensive.

Considering your recent posts, let's say you are indirectly saying the VTM is collecting information from B.F.E.C. in order to gain some ill-perceived marketing advantage over the HFY association. That is a very disgusting thing to suggest in my book, and I'd really be interested in seeing what the VTM has to say about that *if* that is what you are saying. If you're talking about yourself, then that's a shameful thing to admit man.

If not, then in my book you are indirectly saying there is no integrity in the VTM's research, and that their "marketing" is more so some person's agenda rather than open sharing and honest promotion. On the VTM Discussion thread you suggest he did something similar to Moy Yat, Garrett Gee, and that he may be repeating this yet again to the Black Flag Eng Chun guys. Can you clarify what you mean?

The Black Flag Wing Chun system contains deep knowledge and concepts, showcasing a different point of entry into the Third Hall of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

Benny Meng took some heat back on HFY108 concerning his 3 Halls program. It was VERY obvious he is a very private person because he never answered any of the questions people were asking, including mine and I don't even train martial arts. I've asked myself why he even bothered posting on a discussion board if he was unwilling to discuss. That boggled my mind at the time, but to each his own I guess.

Now it looks like his new angle is to replace the "Third Hall" material which supposedly consisted of HFY, with Black Flag Eng Chun. His 3 Halls program is making less and less sense to me. The more I am reading about the VTM and the development of their program the more I see lines being blurred between business marketing, professional education, research, and history. Not to mention the fact that people are getting seriously burned in the process. I want no part in that at all.

I used to have an interest in driving down to Dayton to learn from Benny Meng. He was the closer of the two to me, and I wasn't about to drive all the way to California from Illinois on a regular basis to learn HFY. Unfortunately after seeing all this take place and watching it unfold now forget it. My kids and family are more important, and I've had much less frustration and drama in pursuing other ventures. WAY too much drama. I might reconsider the local MMA school a few blocks from here. I know they don't have these kind of problems. I hope things pan out for everyone.

Peter

[Hudson Li]

My statements go on the same page as yours, specially re-read your two last paragraphs and you`ll see mine and yours are the same book.
Let me be clear about my thoughts on the V.T.M. I, like you, used to consider learning from Benny Meng somewhere in the future and I used to believe the V.T.M. was unbiased.
However... a couple of days ago I`ve realized that Black Flag Wing Chun had changed their initial statements regarding history and adopted some of the well known Hung Fa Yi terminology, and reading back the old material released by the V.T.M. it was clear to me that it was Benny Meng`s style printed on the new B.F. declarations.
Now let me tell you this, as it is being advertised, Garrett Gee will be giving out never released information on H.F.Y.`s history at the upcoming seminar in Arizona. Never released information means that not even Benny Meng has ever heard about it. And that never released information is coming out after Benny Meng joined Black Flag and stated that H.F.Y. (until recently, according to his articles, "for highest level monks and militaries only") was in fact a form of W.C. practiced by regular infantry, while Black Flag was the true W.C. of the real elite division.
Note that H.F.Y. student duende has declared that Hung Fa Yi has nothing to do with any Banners, but the new genealogy tree on B.F. website shows Black Flag and Red Flag side by side and under Red Flag it reads Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
If it`s not information and counter information, I wonder what it is.
The point is that I`d sincerely love to attend both seminars, after all it seems both groups have the utmost interest in showing their best. So it`s not my intention to collect info and counter info for political purposes, as you put it, but as a popular Wingchunner, as they put it, I have a legitimate interest in seeing and hearing what both groups have to say.

[Hendrik]

1, VTM doesnt seem to realized that Eng (eternal) Chun is not Wing (praise) Chun.

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html


2, For me after looking at the site, based on the set practice ....etc

With all the respect to HKB Engchun and the ancestors of this lineage, in my humble opion, HKB Engchun is more likely to be a lineage evolution of White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian.



3, As for Wing Chun, we know by evident, The core SLT is fusion from White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang. Where the tale of the Crane and Snake comes.


Today, we could still probe into the Crane and the Snake which fusion into SLT. In the history of China, Both the White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian can be traced to mid 1600 where the founder Ms Fang Chi Niang teaches Eng Chun Kuen in Fujian prior to spread the art to Taiwan. Emei 12 Zhuang could be traced to 1300.

Wing Chun is called Wing Chun because it is the art of the Opera Actors such as Lee Man Mau who lead the Red Bandana or the first Opera Artists revolution in the Chinese history and red boat artist Yik Kam who both exist in mid 1800.

According to Yik Kam's lineage record, the Name of the WCK style prio to WCK is simply Siu Lin Tau. and the Salutation performing before SLT and pole kuit of the Six point half pole is the Code for the revolution to identify the identity of the lineage.




4, I see HKB Engchun as a sister art of WCK from the mother Crane side, but it is not an older art because SLT is based on a 400 years + 700 years old trace able in Chinese official history martial art system.

and the family tree in

http://www.engchunkun.com/familytree.html

might be true for others but certainly not for WCK.


also in this family tree, Eng Chun is preciesly translate as Eternal Spring.





As a conclusion, in my opinion, it is alway good to learn something from other sister art, however, it is a disaster to confuse the source of the art.
As in the Chinese culture, mess up the source of the water is not an act of a filial decendent or a righteous gentle man.



I really hope and pray that VTM do a better job and bring up quality work of finding the source of WCK; and best wishes to HKB Eng Chun's future expansion.

My bottom line is simply, perhaps, it is the time for the WCK community to describe what it is instead of lumping /linking and making more confusion. That present no benifit to anyone in the long run.

[wcextreme]

I don't believe in Shaolin having 3 Halls. There's 36 Halls, and each are used for individual kung fu styles! I guess the VTM's next step is to fill in the other 33 halls of their theory.

I don't believe in learning a Chinese Mixed Martial Arts program created by someone who isn't a certified Sifu in the arts he's mixing.

Why don't we all take a couple of workshops on a particular martial art, like Chi Sim for example, incorporate it into a marketable product, and scam the buyers into believing it's the real deal???

I AM SO P1SSED AT MYSELF for falling for it. Never again. Do not go to their schools. Do your homework before you spend your money!!!

Besides, Shaolin Wing Chun already exists: www.shaolinwingchun.com

They're from Vietnam.

[chusauli]

Besides, Shaolin Wing Chun already exists: www.shaolinwingchun.com

They're from Vietnam.

Dear wcextreme,

WCK has never been proven to be from Shaolin at all, let alone Vietnam or other places.

Its only verifiably traceable to the Opera Boat people, and only after the Opera Boat people were forced to leave the Opera due to the Li Wenmao incident.

There is a saying in history, "Those who don't learn history's lessons are doomed to repeat them."

Best regards,

[TenTigers]

is that why Hendrick has been singing so much as of late?