Changing Wing Chun forms

[punchdrunk]

Sanjuro brought up an interesting point in a different thread. He noted that many Hung Ga people change their iron wire form for public viewing. Has anyone noticed something similar in Wing Chun? I know that commonly the Baat Jam Do form is either not performed at all in public or only parts of it are shown.
I recall reading a Moy Yat book (maybe Voice of the Ving Tsun System) where he saw another Sifu add a Taun Sau between each Fook Sau and Wu Sau in his SLT. When he asked him privately about it he said it was a marker so that everyone seeing it would know it came from his system. I also beleive William Cheung's TWC had it's own competition version of his forms to compete in karate tournaments, not sure if that ones right Phil R. could sort that out.
Bui Gee was considered very secret to the public at one time as well.. anyone ever hear of it being modified for the public?

[Hendrik]

Tons of reason why things changes....


1, in the ancient time, Form or Set comes with Kuen kuit or Kuen Po or the written record. those are the purest form.

2, after a while the form got distorted because one some how forget or missed a certain part of the set and couldnt remember the Kuen Kuit.

3, people make up connection between move when they thought there is a need.

4, people purposely discard some move to purposely mis lead others.

5, modification. IE the sun punch of WCK is actually a modification of a more lethal technics.

6, some doesnt really learn the full complete form but take that as full. or make it full but add-in their own view.


7, some cant make a certain move works thus importing something and cause the set to be modified. IE: when the SLT YJKYM doesnt work, import the Hung Gar Iron Wire, the "southern Shao LIn" wider stance.... to make the move more "powerfull" for them.

8, for demonstration purpose, add in some move to looks good, IE in the 1970's add in Side Kick to looks good.


Actually, IMHO, there is no secret. if there is any then there is only Jin cultivation process can be the secret of the set. For take away that process, the soul of the set is gone and application will not be as effective. Those are the Kung only the indoor student learn in the ancient time. Those are the signature of the art. not the move, but the jin patern.


as for movements people will found out what is missing or added after a while.


everything is a part of evolusion and fading away as any phenomenon in the nature.

[punchdrunk]

Tons of reason why things changes....




everything is a part of evolusion and fading away as any phenomenon in the nature.

Sounds right to me, evolution is definately part of the changes, we must fit the world we are in.

[Hendrik]

Sounds right to me, evolution is definately part of the changes, we must fit the world we are in.

To be real honest, Evolution is normal. However, the lost of the Jin or the signature really kill the art.

Certainly, there is nothing wrong with modify the art.

IE: some one after mastering the Jin of its style further evolve it to something better or further evolve it to something different.

The trouble is when one doesnt master the art and keep changing it and that doesnt bring benifit but kill the art practically. Knowing the strenght and weakness of the art and change it is not an issue. changing for sake of changing or ignorance is a biggest problem today. and it has been problem since at least 40 years ago.


As my post of the two simple questions, there is nothing wrong to make changes, there is nothing bad about make changes, but one needs to responsible for those who is learning or training with those stuffs. if those simple stuffs are not clearly define. there is no skill development but mimic-ing. that is a waste of time.

Now, some one might come up and answer, my YJKYM is for practicing Chain punch only. that is totally acceptable. because those who practice YJKYM that way will know what is it for. instead of doing one thing and expecting other stuff which can never be deliver.


The following is a sample example of how a set's li/jin details was train in other styles. Not just mimic the set, but there are different training...

the set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtM4MpUlcGg

the details
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=HK&h...&v=BkXAaNtpRZY




The detail within the set explain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1RHC...om=PL&index=13


Notice two type of art cultivate two different type of Li and Jin. form can change and modified but is that Jin signalture or DNa still stay with it?

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share your opinin on Jin cultivation?



Also what deadly techniques has sun punch replaced? (Is it Phoenix Eye Fist, Ginger Fist or Gee strikes?)


Please enlighten me?

Tons of reason why things changes....


1, in the ancient time, Form or Set comes with Kuen kuit or Kuen Po or the written record. those are the purest form.

2, after a while the form got distorted because one some how forget or missed a certain part of the set and couldnt remember the Kuen Kuit.

3, people make up connection between move when they thought there is a need.

4, people purposely discard some move to purposely mis lead others.

5, modification. IE the sun punch of WCK is actually a modification of a more lethal technics.

6, some doesnt really learn the full complete form but take that as full. or make it full but add-in their own view.


7, some cant make a certain move works thus importing something and cause the set to be modified. IE: when the SLT YJKYM doesnt work, import the Hung Gar Iron Wire, the "southern Shao LIn" wider stance.... to make the move more "powerfull" for them.

8, for demonstration purpose, add in some move to looks good, IE in the 1970's add in Side Kick to looks good.


Actually, IMHO, there is no secret. if there is any then there is only Jin cultivation process can be the secret of the set. For take away that process, the soul of the set is gone and application will not be as effective. Those are the Kung only the indoor student learn in the ancient time. Those are the signature of the art. not the move, but the jin patern.


as for movements people will found out what is missing or added after a while.


everything is a part of evolusion and fading away as any phenomenon in the nature.

[anerlich]

I also beleive William Cheung's TWC had it's own competition version of his forms to compete in karate tournaments, not sure if that ones right Phil R. could sort that out.

I don't know about this, but my teacher was with William Cheung from the mid-70s to mid-90's. I also studied with a guy who had trained with him in the late 1960s.

Hearsay has it that he did make modifications to the forms from time to time, allegedly so he would be able to tell from whom a particular TWC guy he may not have trained with might have learned them. The Bil Jee in the book is not the same Bil Jee that I learned (and nor, I gather the same as most have been shown, perhaps so he could tell who had studied from the book ) The pole book is different, but this may be because of publication errors.

There are several "extra" dummy sets, and one which is allegedly interchanged with one of the others. I've seen several ways to do all the forms and the footwork therein. I'm sure most of them can be found on Youtube (I've seen plenty). There's little to be gained through secrecy of techniques these days - might as well put 'em out there, have people try to counter them, and keep improving them based on experimentation.

IMO many past practitioners, including Yip Man, changed the forms. We have a "canonical" way of performing each form, but we are also encouraged to play around with them, substitute movements and sections etc. etc. These are frameworks for experimentation, not stone tablets inscribed by some Finger of God.

[Hendrik]

Please share your opinin on Jin cultivation?

what good is opnion? worth nothing.

Also what deadly techniques has sun punch replaced? (Is it Phoenix Eye Fist, Ginger Fist or Gee strikes?)

Legend said,

much much more lethal then what you can imagine, something which can break Iron body. Yes target to break iron body.


But that is nothing to boast about. and the ancestors purposely take it out because there is Karma. Those who kill will be killed.

Spring is for giving life. not taking life.

Please enlighten me?

Nothing to enlighten anyone, everyone walks thier own path. Baisi with a few good sifus save lots of time.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . also beleive William Cheung's TWC had it's own competition version of his forms to compete in karate tournaments, not sure if that ones right Phil R. could sort that out.. . . . .

Sifu Anthony Arnett was a tournament champion. He realized that WC forms weren't flashy enough to compete against Karate forms. So with permission from Sifu Cheung he adapted the forms to fit what Karate tournament form judges were looking for. He called what he developed "Cheung"s Style". He even teaches his students to yell CHEUNG while punching or kicking instead of a Kiai when competing. I remember going to a tourny with Alan Lamb (who was my Sifu at the time), and doing a close to perfect Chum Kiu. The judges were looking at each as if they had no clue as to what was happening in the form. A karate guy doing a non-traditional kata with flips and other acrobatics performed after me and got a standing ovation. After that Sifu Lamb said that he wouldn't enter his students in a form competition again. That's probably the reason Sifu Arnett adapted the forms for competition. I've even seen some competition WC forms developed in China as well.

[anerlich]

Just so you don't feel bad Phil, some of my Tasmanian fellow students won a karate forms competition recently doing straight TWC Chum Kil.

[duende]

There are several "extra" dummy sets, and one which is allegedly interchanged with one of the others. I've seen several ways to do all the forms and the footwork therein. I'm sure most of them can be found on Youtube (I've seen plenty). There's little to be gained through secrecy of techniques these days - might as well put 'em out there, have people try to counter them, and keep improving them based on experimentation.

I imagine this is just to reflect the subject matter that is currently being focused on.

WC forms in my experience lend themselves to being in constant flux due to WC's emphasis on concepts over techniques.

New, or "extra" forms are just an extension of this philosophy, imo.

Best,

Alex

[punchdrunk]

Figured the competition forms were changed to fit the format, thanx for the info Phil R. Wing Chun forms are just to boring and textbook like for flashy contests, and karate tourneys look for kiai's and focused intensity (at least apperance) over most Wing Chun concepts.

[Phil Redmond]

Just so you don't feel bad Phil, some of my Tasmanian fellow students won a karate forms competition recently doing straight TWC Chum Kil.

Now that's good to hear. I believe martial artists are getting familiar with other arts. Back in NY in the 80's I don't think most Karate people were familiar with Chinese arts.

[Phil Redmond]

I imagine this is just to reflect the subject matter that is currently being focused on.

WC forms in my experience lend themselves to being in constant flux due to WC's emphasis on concepts over techniques.

New, or "extra" forms are just an extension of this philosophy, imo.

Best,

Alex

That's exactly correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the past, certain forms were kept "close to the heart" as "proof" of how high up someone was in a MA "clan".
As such certain forms were never done publicly or if they were, they were changed so as to not be subject to "trademark infringments" LOL !
Sometimes it was because the current GM or elders didn't OK the public use of the form, other times it was to just protect certain parts/facets of a system.
Typiclaly this would be the case with high ranking forms, as for example the Iron wire of the "white crane" form in some Karate systems.
Certainly it would not be the case in the "base" or "core" forms such as SLT in WC or Sanchin in Goju.
Yet, at the same time there are many versions of many core forms.
Sanchin for example can be style specific in terms of the moves, the technoiques the breathing or all of the above, 100 styles 100 sanchin is an old okinawan adage.
None of them are the REAL sanchin, just as none of them are "FAKE" sanchin, they are just different.
Its the principles that make a form, not the "techniques".

[anerlich]

Sanchin for example can be style specific in terms of the moves, the technoiques the breathing or all of the above, 100 styles 100 sanchin is an old okinawan adage.

One of the first forms I ever learned was a soft, southern shaolin version of Sanchin.